Class D / E / G / TSRA

[Bruce Fenstermacher]

Thanks for all the imput on Class E! Very well covered.

Three area's of Class E Airspace for me to remember.
1. Above 1200 ft AGL is Class E . Below 1200 ft AGL is Class G.
2. Transitioning to an Instrument Approach Airport (solid magenta line around airport), Class E will drop from 1200 to 700 AGL. Below 700 ft is Class G.
3. If the Airport has a broken magenta line around it, then Class E might or might not go to the ground.
If the weather is bad (visibility 3 miles or less / ceiling 1000 ft or less), then Class E goes to the surface. If weather is a good VFR day, Class E is down to 700 and Class G is down to surface.

Almost got it but not quite. Your statements may be true in your area but not everywhere. Lets review and I'll comment.

1. Above 1200 ft AGL is Class E . Below 1200 ft AGL is Class G.

Most airspace above 1200 ft AGL is Class E unless it is Class D, C or B and of course at 18000 ft you hit Class A. If you get to Class A in your 170 please write it up for the 170News. As for the second part of your statement that might be true in your area but in mine Class G might start below 700 ft AGL unless of course we are in Class B, C, D or Class E to the ground.

2. Transitioning to an Instrument Approach Airport (solid magenta line around airport), Class E will drop from 1200 to 700 AGL. Below 700 ft is Class G.

Yes I think you understand this. But again the way you describe it might be the way you find it in your area. In my area it is extremely difficult to actually see the magenta shading around an airport in any defined pattern.

3. If the Airport has a broken magenta line around it, then Class E might or might not go to the ground.
If the weather is bad (visibility 3 miles or less / ceiling 1000 ft or less), then Class E goes to the surface. If weather is a good VFR day, Class E is down to 700 and Class G is down to surface.

If the airport has a broken magenta line around it then it is Class E to the ground all the time unless otherwise indicated as some Class E does not exist during certain hours. If the Class E to the surface is not in effect then the Class E floor would revert to either 700 or 1200 ft AGL.

The biggest difference between Class G and Class E airspace regardless of were it is or why it is in effect is the weather minimums required to fly in it and those minimums never change. To be safe and keep things simple just think of the dotted magenta lined Class E airspace as always being in effect and you won't go wrong.

The subject of Class E airspace can get many a pilot scratching their head and it would be a great subject for a convention seminar. I think George should teach it and I can sit back and make sure he's right.

[AR Dave]

I appreciate the guidance Bruce and think it would be a great convention topic!
Good suggestion on just thinking of the broken magenta line as always Class E.
You're right, I'm referring to flying around the Ozarks and not any other Class.
Learned a lot since first asking about Class E, of course I've been taking this discussion to my local airport as well.
I have a lot more FAR/AIM Questions -

[jrenwick]

Thanks Paul! Some time ago we looked in the A/FD and couldn't find that. I'll look again!

We had the skiing Cubs out a couple of weekends ago. Flew over to Boyceville for lunch, after stopping at a friend's house ("Cub Acres"). It was getting warm, and the snow was getting sticky. Not as much fun as it was in December.

Right now, I think it might be time to go back to wheels (that's a quick swap). Unless we get a good dump of snow pretty soon, I think we're done for the season.

Happy flying!

Jolhn

[DaveF]

[quote="N9149AThe subject of Class E airspace can get many a pilot scratching their head and it would be a great subject for a convention seminar.[/quote]

And some people say instrument flying is complicated . . .

[Brad Brady]

[quote="N9149AThe subject of Class E airspace can get many a pilot scratching their head and it would be a great subject for a convention seminar.

And some people say instrument flying is complicated . . . [/quote]

Dave,
I wouldn't say class E is complicated, just misunderstood, and when do you need knowledge of class E?.....Of course when every thing is going to crap ...It might really, make a good convention topic....Brad

[W.J.Langholz]

Right now, I think it might be time to go back to wheels (that's a quick swap). Unless we get a good dump of snow pretty soon, I think we're done for the season.

Happy flying!

Jolhn

John
I took the big snowblower off my big tractor too today........we're going get a big one for sure now

W.

[jrenwick]

Yeah -- we've got a guy like that at Lake Elmo. If we can talk him into taking the skis off his C140 it'll snow for sure!!

John

[DaveF]

It might really, make a good convention topic.

I agree. I've read the posts several times and I'm still not sure I get class E. When I got my instrument rating 16 years ago I pretty much quit worrying about the subtleties of airspace and VFR minima. If in doubt, file IFR. This is a good thread.

[AR Dave]

Continued Airspace Training 101:
So this seems like it could bring out a good discussion.
What in the world is all this about?



My clueless thoughts:-
FSM (Fort Smith, AR) Class D (eff hrs) or Class E.
Class E outside magenta line - floor down to 1200 ft., inside magenta line floor down to 700 ft..
What about inside blue dashed line when it's Class E airspace?
Does Class E go to SFC or stay at 700 ft? I'm betting SFC because it's a blue dashed line.

Now what about this TSRA? 70/25 floor is 2500? What does that mean to me?
70/15 - Can I fly under the 70/15 shelf at 1400, without communication with tower?
70/SFC - Have to contact tower before crossing that inside band?
Contact FSM tower 118.3, TRSA Frequency at 120.9 (0530-2300), or talk on UNICOM 122.95 if tower not in eff.?
Do I have to do anything since the whole TRSA thing is voluntary? Voluntary?

Class D [30] - when active is from SFC up to 3000 ft.
Class E above 3000, up to 18,000?
TRSA SFC to 7000.

[Bruce Fenstermacher]

Ok

First as you guessed the Class D indicated by the blue dashed line turns into Class E from the surface.

Now to the TRSA question. Once upon a time the USA had its own names for airspace. I've racked my brain to remember them but a few are ATA or Airport Traffic Area now Class D, TCA or Terminal Control Area now Class B, TRSA and many others I can't think of.

In the late eighties the USA converted to the international standard of lettered airspace like the rest of the world and we got Class A through G airspace. There is no Class F airspace before you ask. Well our Terminal Radar Service Area (TRSA) didn't fit any of the alphabet airspace and so it remained a TRSA.

What does a TRSA mean to you and me. A TRSA is found around a few airports that have radar service. Radar service is there probably because there was enough traffic to warrant the expense of the radar but not enough to meet the requirements of a Class C or B. So you must think traffic.

As for the requirements to enter a TRSA, there aren't any. That is right there are no special requirements to enter a TRSA. Your participation ie contact with the controllers is voluntary, yes it is highly recommended, but voluntary.

[jrenwick]

...Now to the TRSA question. Once upon a time the USA had its own names for airspace. I've racked my brain to remember them but a few are ATA or Airport Traffic Area now Class D, TCA or Terminal Control Area now Class B, TRSA and many others I can't think of....

Bruce,

Remember Control Zones? Those became part of Class E airspace. I believe many of the old TRSAs became Class C airspace. TRSA isn't really airspace in the sense that A...G are, because as you said, it places no requirements or limitations on what you can do there.

Some other countries have Class F airspace definitions, but the US doesn't. While the airspace class designations are the same worldwide, the meaning of the letters differs from one country to another -- i.e., the rules for a given class of airspace aren't necessarily the same when you've crossed an international border.

[jrenwick]

... TRSA isn't really airspace in the sense that A...G are, because as you said, it places no requirements or limitations on what you can do there....

I should have said that when you're flying in a TRSA, you're still in one of the alphabet classes -- D or E -- and the rules for those still apply.

John

[Bruce Fenstermacher]

Oh yes good old Control Zones forgot about those. I should have said the US doesn't have Class F airspace but to be honest I wasn't sure any other country did. Besides Canada I've never flown in another country but can't figure why we changed to Class Alpabet airspace if their Class Alphabet airspace isn't the same or at the very least close.

You are right John most of the TRSA airspace probably changed to Class C. And you of course are correct that when you are in a TRSA you will also be in Class D, E or G airspace and should be following the rules for the particular airspace you might be in.

Another way to think of a TRSA is an area that has radar that you can take advantage of but are not required to.

[jrenwick]

Here's a nice rundown on the ICAO airspace classes, and how they're used in various countries: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airspace_class.

It says ICAO is considering changing to a 3-class structure, roughly equivalent to the present C, E, and G. Eek!! If that happens, and the US conforms, does that mean we'll need mode C and an ATC clearance wherever there's a tower? Gawd....

John

[GAHorn]

AOPA Airspace Flash Cards for download:
http://www.aopa.org/asf/publications/airspacecards.pdf

Airspace short-course:
http://www.aopa.org/asf/publications/sa02.pdf