The International Cessna^® 170 Association

The three in ten are the ones who never leave the office. I have recent experience in ramp checks. If you work for an air carrier or aerial applicator, external load, organization that holds a certificate you are probably going to get a ramp check some day and its going to go exactly the way Bruce describes it. It is no big deal. The FAA management plan work every year and assign these and other checks some of which are required and some of which are planned. If you fly GA in small airplanes the chances of getting a ramp check are pretty remote and depend on the location. If there have been accidents/incidents/complaints at or near an airport, then an FAA manager is going to send inspectors out to perform surveillance and some of that could be in the evening or on weekends. Again it is no big deal if you take care of the basics. If you need to come in to the FAA for a flight check such as a CFI checkride or if you are a 141 school, then your airplane will be checked by an airworthiness inspector and that can be a challenge. A lot of well meaning GA operators have not kept up with the latest in airworthines standards including recordkeeping. Also, most FAA inspectors have aviation experience and they bring this to the job which sometimes intimidates a well meaning GA pilot. Sometimes the inspector's standards exceed the regulations, in which case they mean well, but really can not enforce it. The "current chart" issue is an example of that. I can not say this for the whole US, but your chances of getting a violation from a ramp check are very remote. If there is something wrong, you'll probably get notified to get it fixed. Sometimes a special flight permit is needed to get to a place where you can get it fixed. To get "violated" by the FAA, these days, requires the agency to "prove" you did or did not do something that is contrary to a specific regulation and has fairly drastic consequences. If you made a mistake inadvertantly and it does not have catastrophic implications, you will probably get a written warning (not a finding of violation), remedial training, a re-examination (sounds awfull but not that big a deal) or even simple counselling. Believe it or not, the FAA wants voluntary compliance because that is the best way to maintain the good safety record that we enjoy in aviation.
I am a big proponent for having the FAA do courtesy ramp checks as was mentioned earlier in this thread. It would be educational, it would catch safety items that owners could then fix before problems occur, and it would probably curtail the intimidation factor that most GA pilots feel when it comes to the FAA. If the coast guard and state DOTs do it and users appreciate it, it just makes sense for the FAA to try. To me, it would be giving the public something back of value for their tax $. If you want this in your area, call your local FAA FAASTeam manager and ask if it can be planned for your airport. If there is enough interest, who knows, maybe it will happen.

Just out of curiosity does anybody here have recent experience with flying over the border to the north, and survival guns? I understand at least in the past you were actually required to have a 12ga. onboard for survival in Canada and I haven't kept up with any regs for that. Is it still the case that you are required to have it, and how does that work out at the check points?

voorheesh wrote:The three in ten are the ones who never leave the office.

I forgot about those 3. Now that throws my numbers all off

Jr.CubBuilder wrote:Just out of curiosity does anybody here have recent experience with flying over the border to the north, and survival guns? I understand at least in the past you were actually required to have a 12ga. onboard for survival in Canada and I haven't kept up with any regs for that. Is it still the case that you are required to have it, and how does that work out at the check points?

There is no survival firearm requirement any more in either Canada or Alaska. You can't bring a handgun into Canada, almost without exception. Some automatic weapons are also prohibited. You can bring a rifle or shotgun into Canada, but it requires a 60-day temporary permit that you purchase at the border for $50.00.

This was true as of last summer when I flew the 170 to Alaska. More info at http://www.cbsa-asfc.gc.ca/publications ... 4-eng.html

Jr.CubBuilder wrote:Why the VOR check? Is that assuming you have an IFR certified plane?

Yes. For IFR operations the VOR accuracy check in accordance with FAR 91.171 must be performed and recorded at least every 30 days. The inspector may ask to see the record.

jrenwick wrote:...Early in this thread I asked for people's experiences on ramp checks. Thanks to all who responded! But I'm really interested in knowing how long ago these experiences occurred, because the FAA's procedures and goals may have changed over time....

I last experienced a ramp-check in 2005. It was at KEFD (bluEldr, that's Ellington Field, the old Air Force Base between Houston and Galveston). That field is now the headquarters of the Houston FSDO, and I'd forgotten they'd moved from Hobby to EFD.

I'd flown a retired pilot-buddy down there to visit a friend, and a Cessna 172 was on the flight-line and we taxied up and parked next to it. A late-40's/early-50's guy holding a clipboard and wearing a white shirt and tie and black nameplate (should'a noticed that right away!)... was with a young man (early 20's) who was running around like a headless chicken. The Headless Chicken disappeared back into the FBO to attempt to purchase an IFR hood. It turned out he was attempting his private-pilot check-ride and had failed to note that he must provide a hood and the inspector was allowing him to attempt to locate one. (The FBO, being primarily a corporate-jet kind of place didn't have any and Headless didn't get to take his check-ride.)
Not to waste the taxpayer's dollar, while Headless was in the FBO, Inspector Clipboard approached me as I was locking the controls and asked if I'd mind if he conducted an "inspection". I agreed as long as it didn't take too long.
He asked for a photo-I.D., my pilot and medical certificates and for the aircraft airworthiness and registration certificates. He wrote all the numbers down, asked if the maintenance record was onboard (they weren't and will never be), he thanked me, and turned to leave.
I decided not to disappoint all you guys and voluntarily offered him a look at my AFM and he hadn't a clue what that was, so I explained it to him, and he gave me a look that reminded me of the time I told my 4th grade teacher that my math homework couldn't be completed because those particular pages were missing from my math-book. It was similar to the focused look my buddy Chuck's Rotweiler gave me as he sat in the middle of Chuck's driveway and observed me fiddle with the lock on Chuck's gate.
I decided to move on.

Thanks George! That's an amusing story. You were on thin ice there (does that mean anything in Texas?) volunteering information that wasn't asked for!

So it sounds like the story I got, which is that they're only looking for the certificates, may be accurate -- if only because they're not training their people to go any more deeply!

Last checkride I took (CFI), the examiner gave me a very thorough lesson in looking for all the required on-board documentation, as well as a look at the maintenance logs to make sure all inspections and ADs were current. This was expected, and everything was in good order.

John

Anybody up to speed on this new crap coming down the pipe???? More freedom being stripped....


TSA needs to re-examine security directive
By AOPA ePublishing staff

AOPA has requested that the Transportation Security Administration (TSA) re-evaluate a recent security directive (SD) that could affect tens of thousands of general aviation pilots who are based at air carrier airports.

The directive expands the requirement for background checks and security badges to more pilots based at airports served by airlines. In 2009, pilots based at air carrier airports must undergo a background check and receive a security badge, if they haven’t done so already, in order to continue to have access to the airport. Transient pilots are unaffected by the directive. However, they will continue to be subject to the current escorting and monitoring requirements.

“Pilots have long operated without incident on these airports, and it is surprising that the TSA appears to have implemented such a significant new mandate with no notification or discussion,” said Andy Cebula, AOPA executive vice president of government affairs. “It will have a significant impact on pilots and airports in many small communities across the country.”

AOPA has expressed its concerns directly to the TSA.

“Based on information from a number of TSA-regulated airports, it is clear that compliance with this SD will necessitate the badging and performance of security threat assessment on tens of thousands of general aviation pilots who operate from these airports,” wrote Cebula in a Dec. 16 letter to the TSA. “While the TSA consulted with representatives from the airport industry prior to issuing the SD, no one from the general aviation community was contacted. This is unfortunate because we could have provided important insight into the effects of such action.”

The TSA is preventing AOPA from reviewing the entire SD, but information from airport managers indicate that it is inconsistent with other security requirements, such as those for security identification display areas at air carrier airports.

“I respectfully request that you re-examine this security directive and allow the general aviation industry to work with the TSA to develop acceptable alternatives that will not impose unreasonable burdens on airports or general aviation pilots,” Cebula concluded.

Many of us have been told that if a ramp check occurs that we are required to "show" our pilot ceritificate, medical, etc., but NOT to hand documents to the FAA personnel as they could then refuse to return them to us. Would this be true also of the weight & balance data, aircraft airworthiness cert, etc?

If an FAA employee took your license or any other document and refused to return it to you he/she would be in some serious trouble with their office manager. We are talking in the manager's office, door shut, with the union rep, and job possibly on the line. Think about it. What possible reason would that inspector have for doing something ridiculous like that? I think that myth started in the airline business where there has been a long time "game" played between inspectors and pilots that stems from some captains feeling their "authority" is somehow diminished in the FAA's presence. One of the funnier aspects of that game is when an air line pilot gives the inspector an expired medical and sees if he catches the date. More often than not, the inspector would not notice it which would then give the pilot the upper edge as the "game" continued. Quit worrying about the FAA. It sounds like the TSA is more of a challenge. Here in Fresno, if you don't have airport ID, you are escorted from your airplane into the terminal and need an escort to get back out. I am told that each Part 139 airport (served by airlines) has to adopt their own security plan. They also charge itinerants a landing fee now (I think $10 for a single). At least the small airports like Fresno Chandler where I am based are still open and easy to get in and out of. Adios.

vooreesh - I occasionally find it necessary to fly into Fresno. The last time there I taxied up to one of the FBOs (can't remember which one) and arranged for a car or pickup by relatives - no escort required. Has the situation changed to the point that a pilot without a badge, which is every transient pilot flying in to Fresno, is required to have an escort even if we go no where near the terminal? I think I can understand the precaution if the pilot needs to enter the commercial terminal.

I think it has. I have a badge there and I had to go through an hour training where I was told that all tennants (hangar renters/tie downs included) were being badged. We were taught to challenge someone without a badge. There are many levels of badge ie: airline ramp, GA ramp, Authorized to escort/not authorized etc. I was at Corporate the other day and the young lady wanted to see my badge before she would let me out on the ramp and then she told me to make sure I was wearing it right. There is no longer a transient parking like we used to have at the ATC tower. Intinerant, you have to go to Corporate, Scott, or Atlantic and someone usually meets you and makes sure you leave the ramp. Otherwise, everyone is still friendly but security is definitely tighter. I will check next week when I am down there and find out for sure. Incidentally, Chandler is a better airport, closer to down town and lower fuel prices IMHO.

Clarification: Corporate Aircraft at KFAT says they monitor the ramp and allow pilots to go back and forth to airplanes without escort. If you walk away from the immediate vicinity (to unattended ramps), you need a badge. You have to identify yourself as a pilot or badge holder before Corporate will let you on ramp. They are badging tennants who tie down airplanes on unattended ramps and hangars. So it is not as draconian as I first indicated. Landing fee for small Cessna is $10 or 10 gallons of fuel @ $4.40/gal. I paid $3.90 this pm for avgas at KFCH.

This TSA rule isn't exactly "new"....but perhaps it's just being the same old pot being "re-stirred".
The rule is intended primarily to increase security-awareness amongst us all, is my personal take on it.
As an example, I frequently act as a contract-pilot on various corporate aircraft at several different airports...in particular KHOU, KSAT, KAUS, and KDAL (bluEldr: thats Houston-Hobby, San Antonio Int'l, Austin-Bergstron, and Dallas-Love.) I use different FBO's at those airports and many of them have never seen me before...or they've forgotten me. In some cases the personell at those FBO's have changed and they would not know me even tho' I've used that FBO location (maybe when it was known as a previous company-name)...the point is .... I'm unknown to them.

In every case, I mention the tail number of the aircraft I'm heading out on the ramp for and they "buzz" the security door and allow me full access to THEIR ramp without further challenge. That meets the rule since they've identified me as a pilot of particular airplane and I do not leave the "control area" they're assigned.

I fly so often out of Bergstrom, it COULD be construed that I should apply for an airport I.D., and submit to a background-check... but I figure "Why?" I don't claim KAUS to me my "base" and therefore I'm a transient and I'm not inconvenienced and my privacy is not violated.

I have for several years suggested that FAA issue plastic pilot certificates with our photo-I.D. on the certificate and a magnetic strip for easy verification and pass-priviledges at air-carrier airports. FAA said it would be too costly to implement. Then the next year they started superceding the paper certs. with plastic ones. (I don't look anything like the two fellows depicted upon them, either.)

Anyway... like gun-control.... don't let this get anyone's shorts is a wad. It's only intended to frighten the uninitiated and the unknowlegeable into identifying themselves to airport personell (whether it be the occasional real-security/rent-a-cop or an FBO desk-clerk) before they head out to YOUR airplane. Who knows? Maybe it'll keep some high-school-flunky wannabe from fiddling with the door-locks on YOUR airplane so he can look inside?

This "being escorted or badged in the AOA" goes back to before 9/11 and the TSA. Only now the TSA is getting nasty about it. At larger airports that had commercial service, you had to have a badge to access the AOA, or Air Operations Area. The airport police would enforce it, but access control was part of their job and they were rarely concerned with what went on at the GA side of the field.

Now what's happening is the TSA has mandated that ALL airports that have commercial service implement their own ID badge program and anyone in the AOA (inside the security fence) either have a badge or be escorted by someone with a badge. When I got my badge at SAT, I had to spend half a day in a class run by the airport police. I assume since they used a lot of FAA materials that it was a pretty standard course. They defined escorting as being no more than one arm's length away from the person you are escorting. And a badge holder could only escort up to two non-badge holders. Of course if someone you were escorting made a run for it, you weren't supposed to use force or chase after them, but proceed in an orderly fashion to the nearest security phone and call the airport police. So if I landed a Challenger at SAT with 8 passengers and 2 crew, it would take 5 linemen to escort everyone to the building. Yeah, right.

Anyway, the problem with this is that it not only places an undue burden on small airports, but also the pilots based there. We're not talking LAX, we're talking places like Montrose, Colorado and Kearney, Nebraska (pop. 27,000 with one regional flight a day). Also there is no standardization between badges so a person who wants unescorted access at two airports will have to sit through two classes and pay two fees. It has been asked why TSA just doesn't provide one security credential for anyone who wants one. Their answer is it's not in their budget. Now to top it all off, the TSA goons are going around scaring folks with threats of fines and imprisonment if they don't have their badge displayed. The number $10,000 was mentioned. When asked where was that published, they answered that it is in their "Playbook", the Super Secret Squirrel book that tells them what they can and cannot do, but that nobody outside the TSA can see. Like everything they do, this is another poorly thought out plan that has more holes in it than a collander

George,

Are you (or WHEN are you) going to split this airport security discussion from the firearms discussion? This wasn't really thread DRIFT, it actually fell off the cliff.

Miles