Keep it orginal?

[Clark]

I recently acquired my second 170B, a very original '53 model with less than 2000 hours TT. It's never been painted, has the original upholstery, headliner and carpet, I even have the original Superhomer radio and antennae. My question relates to how its originality affects its resale value. The airplane is a "flyer" and not a museum piece. Specifically, should I fight maintaining the polished aluminum or paint at least the wing upper and lower skins with a silver/gray paint? Would the installation of shoulder harnesses detract from its value? The Cleveland brake coversion is certainly less costly to maintain and seems to work better than the original Goodyears, but again, is the airplane worth more with the original brakes? Would upgrading the gyros to something more modern make the aircraft worth more or less? In repainting the red stripes, would a base coat/clear coat be a determining factor in judging its originality?

TC

[mit]

Get rid of the goodyears, they have been the cause of the destruction of to many good airplanes. I would subtract money if they where installed.

[N2865C]

I purchased a '54 model this year in almost identical condition to yours as you describe it. I am restoring it to as near original as possible. I spent a year looking every day, and the ones that were clean and original always commanded top dollar. Plus, they just look so cool. I had planned to pay dearly for one that was recently restored in excellent condition, but the very few good one's that did make it to the market were gone the same day. I (happily) ended up with the proverbial "stored in a barn" classic that I'll spend a year or so restoring.

The 170 Association judging criteria is listed in the members section. I don't think that safety items (harnesses, Cleveland's) are a deduction at Oshkosh. I'm putting in harnesses because it's hard for me to put a price on my wife's face. I am not out to win prizes, just to have an excellent example of a really classic aircraft. The one concession I may make is to paint part of the wings. I live in a coastal area and I don't want to end up hating my plane. My paint appointment is in May, so I have time to decide.
jc

[GAHorn]

I recently acquired my second 170B, a very original '53 model with less than 2000 hours TT. It's never been painted, has the original upholstery, headliner and carpet, I even have the original Superhomer radio and antennae. My question relates to how its originality affects its resale value. The airplane is a "flyer" and not a museum piece. Specifically, should I fight maintaining the polished aluminum or paint at least the wing upper and lower skins with a silver/gray paint? Would the installation of shoulder harnesses detract from its value? The Cleveland brake coversion is certainly less costly to maintain and seems to work better than the original Goodyears, but again, is the airplane worth more with the original brakes? Would upgrading the gyros to something more modern make the aircraft worth more or less? In repainting the red stripes, would a base coat/clear coat be a determining factor in judging its originality? TC

When shopping for an antique firearm it's important to be able to tell the difference between an original finish with the patina of age...vs a re-conditioned firearm that's been made to look original. In the first case the firearm will command a premium price. In the second place...only an unknowlegeable buyer will pay a premium price for a re-finished collector's piece.
Not exactly so with airplanes. Especially with "flyers". While an original airplane might bring a premium price over an identical-condition airplane that's been heavily-modified....it also depends on what specific modifications were performed. Example: The original seatbelts were flip-open friction buckles. But those buckles, despite originality, are dangerous and illegal since an AD was issued against them. So an original airplane with those original seat belts would suffer a lower value as the result.
Same thing with Goodyear brakes. While the Cleveland conversion might cost you a point or two when judged at airshows when compared to another equally-well preserved airplane,...in the marketplace the Cleveland brakes are well-known value enhancements. (They are also a safety improvement.) ELT's are not original equipment, but they are required safety items, and a non-equipped airplane will suffer at the marketplace.
Paint is a unique consideration. If a potential buyer is someone who is a trophy-hound and only gets his satisfaction by running around the country chasing airshows/judging events....then it's probably much more valuable to him in original livery. But the average owner, even the ones who are real original afficionados,...will likely forgive a well-executed paint job that follows original lines but skips the polished part and has a plain color painted on the originally polished surfaces. "Custom" paint jobs that vary widely from origninal factory schemes and colors usually do not prove to be good investments from the re-sale position, ....but the person paying the paint shop and using the airplane has the personal enjoyment of his creation while he owns it at least. Depending upon how far a departure from factory original (or subsequent model-year schemes even), the re-sale price will reflect way-out departures. (An example of a scheme that may not suffer would be a 170A or B painted in a later 172 paint scheme. The Cessna-factory flavor still seems to fit the genre so the marketplace doesn't penalize the value too badly based on scheme, and the relative quality and recency of the paint job may more than make up for it, pricewise.)
It's a hard decision whether you wish to wash and wax, or polish and wax. Any airplane needs to be kept clean and presentable to show well to a potential buyer. But you need to decide what will make you most proud of her. If an owner is proud of his bird, he'll keep it good looking and it'll bring a nice price. If he thinks of it as a bland looking airplane, so will a buyer. (Most people love the looks of an original polished airplane....as long as someone else does the work of keeping it that way. For their own they prefer something they perceive as carefree.)
Painting only the wings or selected surfaces strikes me personally as a half-baked potato. I would rather see an airplane all one way ...or all the other, but maybe that's just me.
The original radios are desk-top curios,in my opinion, and should be relegated that station in life. They offer no value to the flying airplane.
The instrument panel and gyros are a mixed bag. I personally prefer the original panel. But I get to fly modern equipment at work and get it out of my system there. I enjoy the goofy placement and appearance of the original panel. I even believe it sharpens my skills as an instrument pilot because the original panel makes me constantly review my scan. In real IFR conditions the lousy lay-out makes me work, and it drives boredom away. It doesn't resemble my real everyday-work at all, and that's partly why I love it.
But for the recreational pilot who intends to take his "flyer" 170 and use it for serious transport,...well, ...he's likely to be more appreciative of a cleanly updated panel with modern gyros more reasonably located within the panel.
If the original interior is in mint condition it will add considerable value. If it's in faded, torn, stained, and worn condition it'll be a detract. Interiors are like paint schemes. Custom interiors that depart drastically from the historically correct interior can harm the resale value. Nicely completed yet updated interiors will preserve value, while nicely finished restorations in original colors/materials will add a lot to a buyer who appreciates originality. (I've got a friend who lives only 5 miles from me who owns a 1950 A model in original paint and interior. The bare metal is very dull having never been polished and the interior is beginning to fall apart from age. It's a flyer. I believe it is worth more than a worn out delapidated A model that's had several paint jobs and re-rags, but I don't feel it has more than $2K or $3K more advantage, because they both will need restoration and both will cost about the same to do it. My friend is thinking it's like a firearm. I don't believe that's quite correct. But if one intends to have an Oshkosh-winner, then a couple grand extra for my friend's might be in order to have all the pieces at once. But for a flyer, I'd rather spend the extra couple of grand on the restoration.
If you tell me the kind of buyer you'll be showing it to, I'll tell you what kind of condition you should have been keeping it in.

[funseventy]

When I was looking for my 170, I had a lot of money from my recent 180 sale. I was looking for the best 170 I could buy and was willing to pay. But my idea of "best" might be different than someone elses. I would want full paint. Iwas looking at airplanes that were approaching the 50K mark and wasn't finding anything I'd take home. I ended up buying a '54 that had rotten paint and interior, but had good radios, glass, and low time engine. That on top of the last owner having it for 39 years and I felt I got a lot for 34K. I have redone the interior to my liking and it is leaving to go to paint is the next couple of days. I will end up under 45K invested in exactly what I want.

Everyone is different. I would think mine will approach the 50K mark to the right buyer, if I was dumb enough to sell.

Kelly

[zero.one.victor]

In my opinion,if the airplane is polished or polishable,it'd be a shame to paint over it. If the unpainted metal is pitted,hailed-on,etc,go for the paint. Seems like once the skins are scuffed up for painting,it's pretty hard to get them back in seriously polishable shape. It's kinda like losing your virginity,once it's gone--it's gone forever! I once looked at a 140 for sale,the owner was very proud of the polish job. It WAS very shiney,the only trouble was all the scratches,dings,gouges,and hail-pits--it looked terrible!
Unless the airplane is to be used for serious IFR,I wouldn't remove the original gyro's. I might pull the Superhomer out & save it for the next owner. Or maybe mount a modern com radio & transponder in the glove box behind the stock glovebox door,& leave the Superhomer in place just for show? Get a small handheld GPS for VFR navigation,it's better anyway.
If the Goodyears are in good shape,I'd probably leave them unless you feel you need more brakes. Shoulder harnesses are pretty minor alteration--just a couple small bolt-size holes in the headliner to repair if you (or a later owner) decide to remove them later for originality's sake?
All that being said,my ragwing is pretty far from original.Not my doing,I don't think I'd have made all the mods previous owners did,but nothing too horrible either. Non-standard paint scheme is probably the worst offense. It doesn't seem to want to shine up,maybe someday I'll strip it & see if it'll take a polish. If not,I'll go for the "Alaskan bare" finish.

Eric

[3958v]

If you want my opinion I would vote for originality. I have no problem with modifications that are safety related. But it is posible to keep a plane looking original while making safety related mods or mods that are out of sight. I have a ragwing which I recently striped the paint on and was delighted to find that I can still polish most of the aluminum. I have one or two places where some one removed a little corrosion with sand paper but they are not large areas so I hope to get them looking better. I did decide to paint all control surfaces on the wings to match the silver dope on my new fabric. One advantage no one talks about on the ragwing is that when you go for that polished original look you are talking about 50% of the work. When I striped the paint I was able to see all the original markings from the factory. I was able to get my local sign shop to make computer generated masks so that we can reproduce the markings true to scale. If any one is interested I could get some more of the masks for them at cost. I believe I still have an original interior. I have not been able to match the fabric print on the original door panels so if anyone has a source I would appreciate hearing from you. Maybe this summer you guys will see a polished ragwing flying around the east coast. Bill K

[Dave Clark]

I always make the plane the way I want it and let the "value" take care of itself. After all it is for your own enjoyment isn't it?

[flyguy]

A polished C170 is a beautiful piece of art to behold. People will "OOOHH and AAAHH' when you arrive at a fly-in "BUT" - - - Your pride in it's shine will wane over the years as the hours spent polishing mount and time spent flying gets to be less and less. I speak from experience. My '52 is still unpainted (except for the faded blue trim) and probably will get polished only one more time (that is just a maybe). I just don't have the drive to spend those brutal hours on the business end of a cyclo buffer and that is the truth. "Hours" is being kind for it takes days to do the thing right. Russ Farris showed up at ILM with his beautifully polished '52 and made me wish that I could bring mine out like that just once more. Then he tells me he hires someone to do it! Sneaky guy huh? BTW Silver paint is nowhere like polished aluminum.

Originality should give way to a safe flyer (and lander). Cleveland wheels and brakes, late model seat belts, ( harness optional), good gyros and radio are the least you should shoot for.

IMHO Leave the antique stuff for museum pieces that never fly!

[russfarris]

I guess I should weigh in on this originality issue, since I've made some effort to keep mine stock.

No question about it - when it comes to modifications that really improve the safety of flight, I've got them. Cleveland brakes, shoulder harness, GPS, it's all there. Where I think an old airplane can run off the rails in eye appeal, is the paint scheme. It's a free country, and you can do anything to your 170 want legally, but some of those "custom" jobs really can hurt the looks of the airplane. At the risk of offending the owner, who currently has it for sale, there is a 1950 A out there with a Christen Eagle scheme that looks totally out of place. I don't particularly like late model Cessna factory schemes on a 170 either, in an effort to make it look like a newer airplane - it doesn't work. (The Bonanza crowd are the worst offenders here.)

Actually Gar, I didn't pay anyone to polish my airplane - I conned the local airport kid into doing it in exchange for flight time (he's off getting his A & P now, great kid.) I might end up paying someone this winter, you never know!

I love the look of a polished airplane, but if that elusive 180 I'm looking for ever shows up...well, if it's bare aluminum I can live with it, but all else being equal I hope it's painted. I did notice that at the convention, the only natural aluminum airplanes out of 40 plus 170s were mine and George Horn's.


The 170s I admire are the ones with correct for the era factory paint schemes and colors - painted or polished. A 51 A model with a 56 B paint job is fine with me; it compliments the airplane. I think mid 50s Cessna schemes are some of the prettiest ever designed. They started getting ugly about 1959!

Bonus points to those who have the large wing numbers; they all came with them originally - I've got them on mine. It really makes the airplane look like it flew in from the past....Russ Farris

[GAHorn]

Well said, Russ.
(From the other member of the Mutual Admiration Club.)

[wa4jr]

Hey Russ,

I was thinking the same thing about that Christen Eagle paint job on the 170. The only way I'd buy that plane is if the owner discounted it an amount equal to a new paint job...as it would go immediately into the paint shop. To each his own...but what the heck was this fella thinking? Perhaps drives a Honda Element as well?

[DensityDog]

Clark, I'd be interested to hear how you have decided - to stay original or modify. Personally, I vote for originality too, except for practical items like Cleveland brakes and shoulder harnesses, a good radio. If your plane can be polished back to looking really good, I'd do that too, even if you have to hire someone with polishing experience to do it for you. (I have a polished Cessna, but I haven't gotten around to finishing the polish- probably never will). I'd rather spend my time flying the plane and just add upgrades that I find I could really use while flying. Yes, it's neat to have "all the goodies", but not everyone WANTS that!

Max

[AR Dave]

Well I finally made that paint shop appointment for March 6th....
Is the plane ready? No! But I don't think it'll ever be ready if I don't set the deadline. The one thing Randal reminded me of was the glass. I'll probably try one of the those finishing kits used on golf carts. When I get home, I'll have 2 weeks to change the leaf springs, put on the Bartones, pull all the attachment plates, old strobes, beacons, and I need to finish with that leaking muffler.

Paint Scheme? Oh yes, need to come up with one of those too!
Originality? Get real! There are 4 other members of my family that don't give a rip about us being caretakers of a work of art!
I'm not stuck on it either. The one thing I know is we are going to have the entire plane painted white (wetlook). There goes originality right out the door anyway. Then a bit of modest blue and silver striping. Liked the Silver on Kyles plane (original style paint scheme). Don't care for the original style coloring from the nose down to the firewall. Sorry about breaking rank. It would be just that simple if it were only me, but ERIC here comes the grand finally. My wife is insisting on SWOOSHES as she puts it. In other words, what the new Cessna's do. Guess my plane will soon be recognizable! OH SHUT UP!!!!!!!!!

[zero.one.victor]

Well, Dave, you had me pegged as far as my opinion of "swooshes"! I kinda like them on sneakers, but that's about it! At least, with that supercharger of yours, nobody will have to look at them for very long!
I have a friend with a straight-tail 175 painted with a new factory-style scheme, & it doesn't compliment the airplane's lines at all. IMHO (and his, too- he bought it that way). Another friend has a 52 B with a 1970-ish 180 scheme that looks real good.
Ya know, swooshes don't have to mean a late-style paint scheme, unless of course that's really what yopu want. Anyway Dave, I hope you come up with a design that you all like.

Eric