Millennium Cylinders

doakes · Post by **doakes** » Sat Mar 20, 2004 9:05 pm

Has any 170 drivers had any experience with Millennium cylinders?

I am considering using these on my C-145 at overhaul.
Thanks in advance
DaveO

TP · Post by TP » Sun Mar 21, 2004 2:03 pm

Dave, the local flight school here installed millennium cylinders in there trainers a year or two ago. I'm not awere of them haveing any problems with them. I can ask how many hours they have on there oldest replacement if you like. Oh they put them in there C 150'3/152's/172's and there J3. TP.

N1478D · Post by **N1478D** » Sun Mar 21, 2004 2:14 pm

Hi Dave,

A flight school usually gets better results than us normal

people, maybe because the planes are flown so much more, etc. Not sure that it would be an apples to apples comparison.

ECI down in San Antonio has a great reputation for their cylinders. I have started researching myself, over 1100 hours on the cylinders now, and have not heard one negative about them - lots of happy people that have been running the ECI cylinders. Have heard 1st, 2nd, & 3rd party negatives about the other cylinder manufacturers. That doesn't necessarily mean they are actually bad, it could have been bad breakin, etc. After not hearing any unhappiness, only positives about ECI, and talking with them on the phone which was a very positive experience, at this time they are who I am leaning towards.

zero.one.victor · Post by **zero.one.victor** » Sun Mar 21, 2004 4:16 pm

My overhauler recommended ECI's threre years ago,said he'd been hearing about problems with the Superiors. I went with the ECI's & been real happy--about 535 hours on them so far & no complaints.
Mine are "classic cast"--plain steel. I don't know what options they offer--I've seen the ads for ECI "Titans" but don't know if they're sermichrome,nickel,or whatever the latest hotstuff finish is. I'd recommend plain steel if you plan on flying often & alot. I guess maybe the fancy chromed (or whatever) cylinders are better if the airplane is gonna be parked for long periods of time. Which you shouldn't let it do!

Eric

Post by **GAHorn** » Sun Mar 21, 2004 9:10 pm

When Superior had problems with their Milleniums a couple years ago, they were reluctant to warranty them witlhout a lot of documentation/proof from the unhappy owners. The stories were plentiful about how mad the owners were at Superior. When it became obvious to Superior they had a potential nightmare on their hands, they bellied up to the bar and replaced the cylinders. Too little, too late according to some, who still saw their dollars wasted on labor to tear down/replace the cylinders.
Later Milleniums apparently got over their teething troubles.
TCM went through a similar experience, and now their problems are supposedly cured. (And they offer a factory-equipped version of the later style push-rod tubes.)
ECI has enjoyed a good reputation, but current rumors are they are struggling with a yet-undisclosed problem, and are running slow on delivery while they sort it out.
No one seems immune to occasional bad luck/poor design/production woes.
All things being equal, I personally would lean toward the new TCM's, but ECI and Superior certainly are good names. (And Superior certainly deserves our support and a good pat on the back for producing the Milleniums, without which TCM would have let us all die on the vine.)

russfarris · Post by **russfarris** » Mon Mar 22, 2004 6:17 am

And this brings up a major rant for me. I just had to pull a Millenium cylinder (number 5) because of a worn exhaust valve guide - at 164 hours and 14 months in service! I will admit Superior was very good about it - it is covered under warranty, which is only to 15 months. They paid for the labor, and the cylinder was repaired at one of their service centers. Down time was about ten days. They did admit to me they have changed the valve guide reaming process because of field reports of problems. Great - now I have five more jugs to worry about that will be out of warranty. They did say they would consider future problems I have on a case by case basis.

Can someone please explain to me why quality control is such a chore in general aviation? If Boeing, Airbus and Pratt & Whitney were as sloppy as
most GA companies, the airlines and FAA would scream bloody murder!
I guess Joe Blow doesn't carry any clout. No wonder the lawyers flock to this industry...

Many of you, like I did, messed around with model airplanes when we were kids (I still do!) Remember the Cox ready-to-fly plastic control line models with the .049 engines? They didn't fly very well, except for the PT-19 and Stuka. But it wasn't because of the motors. Cox has produced many millions of .049 engines to tolerances far in excess of anything required of an exhaust valve guide in an O-300. Cox gets it right, and TCM, Superior and others can't consistently make a product that works the way it should that has been around for almost 60 years! It's called QUALITY CONTROL and attention to detail that separates a toy airplane company from the big boys. That German engineer from "Flight of the Phoenix" would be proud. Russ Farris

P.S. I do realize that a model engine would not last 1,800 hours. I maintain that the quality control used by the big guys could stand a lot of improvement.

I would venture to say that more Cox model engines have been made than any other piston engine in the world. They started in about 1950, and the last number I saw was around 70 million...

Joe Moilanen · Post by **Joe Moilanen** » Mon Mar 22, 2004 6:30 am

I put new Milliniums on my plane last year and and have had #2 off twice, #5 off once and I think I've got another one starting to hiss out the exhaust valve (approx. 130 hrs). All exhaust valve guide problems. Takes them many months to pay the R&I bill. The one that's going bad now is out of warrenty and I'm NOT happy!

Joe Moilanen
4518C

russfarris · Post by **russfarris** » Mon Mar 22, 2004 6:48 am

I hear ya Joe, are your cylinders the same age as mine? That is October 2002. They told me they changed the valve guide design and process in November of 2002. Keep us posted and I'll do the same...Russ Farris

mrpibb · Post by **mrpibb** » Mon Mar 22, 2004 3:04 pm

Russ, trust me, we at the airlines have quality control issues. Most recent to me is replacement of rudder trim actuators on the 767 to a modified one. aparrently some bad ones slipped through causing the rudder trim to jam. Or the last biggie was All of our airplanes with the CFM 56-7 had to be pulled due to rotor tip rub on the case, as the engine warmed up the rotors were expanding to much, started rubbing on the case and tear, if not caught soon enough the tips would tear of and shell out the engine on the way out. The fix, pull the engine, pull the top case of the compressor and shave the rotors. Remember the 737 with uncomanded rudders going hard over? Cant count how many rudder pcu's i have changed.
Sorry for the rambling, to windy to go flying today so I'm stuck here on the computer.

Vic

Mike Smith · Post by **Mike Smith** » Mon Mar 22, 2004 8:04 pm

I have millenium cylinders and they're performing great. The engine was overhauled (field O/H) in Nov. 2000. It now has 160 hours since O/H of which the last 100 have been since May '03. My annual in January listed the cylinders as 3 @78 and 3 @77 or 76. My engine is the C-145 on a 1950 C-170A.

Good luck,

blueldr · Post by **blueldr** » Tue Mar 23, 2004 4:05 am

I bought a set of Milleniums when they first came on the market and they gave me excellent service for 1300 hours without any maintenance. My only complaint was that after I sold the set up firewall forward to a member in Mass., he got better oil consumption than I did.

Joe Moilanen · Post by **Joe Moilanen** » Tue Mar 23, 2004 5:22 am

Russ, I bought my cylinders in July of 2002. If I have any more problems I'm going to raise all kinds of H*ll!! The TCM cylinders that I took off made it to TBO twice, maybe I should have kept them...

Joe Moilanen
4518C

DensityDog · Post by **DensityDog** » Sat Mar 27, 2004 4:34 am

Russ,
TCM is fully aware of how to have good quality control. They probably even know how to make cylinders (and valves and guides) last a long time. The problem is they keep trying to cheapen their manufacturing process which results in a lower quality product.
Max

N2218B · Post by **N2218B** » Mon Mar 29, 2004 8:19 pm

I've put 670 hrs on my milleniems with no problems....so far.

On the other hand, based on my recommendation,a friend put new milleniums on a C85 in his Aeronca Chief and he never could get the rings to seat. Superior sent new pistons & rings & still no go. Superior then sent complete new cylinder assemblies. These seem to be working out OK.

Several other sets of milleniums on the airport I am aware of seem to be doing well.

djbaker · Post by **djbaker** » Mon Mar 29, 2004 10:51 pm

blueldr wrote:I bought a set of Milleniums when they first came on the market and they gave me excellent service for 1300 hours without any maintenance. My only complaint was that after I sold the set up firewall forward to a member in Mass., he got better oil consumption than I did.

That's absolutely true, you must remember I fly only at 1,000 ft and you at 10,000 suck the oil right out thru the vent.

The International Cessna^® 170 Association

Millennium Cylinders

Millennium Cylinders

mellenium cylinders