OK gents and gentettes, what do the numbers 309, 309A and 309B have in common with the objects of our affection???
Tomorrow: X-210?????
Bruce
???? A Trivial Pursuit ????
Moderators: GAHorn, Karl Towle, Bruce Fenstermacher
-
4-Shipp
- Posts: 434
- Joined: Mon Apr 22, 2002 11:31 pm
???? A Trivial Pursuit ????
Bruce Shipp
former owners of N49CP, '53 C170B
former owners of N49CP, '53 C170B
-
Harold Holiman
- Posts: 579
- Joined: Tue Apr 23, 2002 1:54 pm
-
cessna170bdriver
- Posts: 4112
- Joined: Mon Apr 22, 2002 5:13 pm
Bruce, this is interesting stuff!!
Found this on the Kansas Aviation History site: http://www.wingsoverkansas.com/history/ ... .asp?id=92 Cessna Model 309 - boundry layer control test aircraft flown (Hank Waring), February 1952. According to the same site Waring was also the first to fly the model 180 prototype.
According to http://www.cessnawarbirds.com/book/eight.html , Waring was a was the first to fly the model 310. According to http://www.aerotalk.com/Lear_EngRoster.cfm, Waring went on to be Chief Engineer for Gates Learjet.
Couldn't find any more references to the 309.
Miles
Found this on the Kansas Aviation History site: http://www.wingsoverkansas.com/history/ ... .asp?id=92 Cessna Model 309 - boundry layer control test aircraft flown (Hank Waring), February 1952. According to the same site Waring was also the first to fly the model 180 prototype.
According to http://www.cessnawarbirds.com/book/eight.html , Waring was a was the first to fly the model 310. According to http://www.aerotalk.com/Lear_EngRoster.cfm, Waring went on to be Chief Engineer for Gates Learjet.
Couldn't find any more references to the 309.
Miles
Miles
“I envy no man that knows more than myself, but pity them that know less.”
— Thomas Browne
“I envy no man that knows more than myself, but pity them that know less.”
— Thomas Browne
-
cessna170bdriver
- Posts: 4112
- Joined: Mon Apr 22, 2002 5:13 pm
Found this on landings.com:
Aircraft Database Search Result
Last Database Update: Mon Aug 1 15:56:14 2005
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Manufacturer : CESSNA
Model Name : 309
Aircraft Type : Fixed Wing Single Engine
Engine Type : Reciprocating
Aircraft Category : Land
Number of Engines : 1
Number of Seats : 4
Max. Gross Weight : Less than 12,500 lbs
Amateur Certification : Yes
Avg. Cruise Speed : 166 mph
Aircraft Code : 2074102
Evidently there is only one:
N-number Database Search Result
Last Database Update: Mon Aug 1 15:56:34 2005
To print registration information, check the checkbox for each registration to be printed and click on "Retrieve Selected Entries" at the bottom of the list.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Check for printing
N-number : N88SM
Aircraft Serial Number : 58-2166
Aircraft Manufacturer : CESSNA
Model : 309
Aircraft Year :
Owner Name : SALE REPORTED
Owner Address : P. O. BOX 25082
OKLAHOMA CITY, OK, 73125
Type of Owner : Government
Registration Date : Not Specified
Airworthiness Certificate Type : Not Specified
Since it's owned by the (a) government, and there only appears to be one of them, is it a military prototype?
Miles
Aircraft Database Search Result
Last Database Update: Mon Aug 1 15:56:14 2005
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Manufacturer : CESSNA
Model Name : 309
Aircraft Type : Fixed Wing Single Engine
Engine Type : Reciprocating
Aircraft Category : Land
Number of Engines : 1
Number of Seats : 4
Max. Gross Weight : Less than 12,500 lbs
Amateur Certification : Yes
Avg. Cruise Speed : 166 mph
Aircraft Code : 2074102
Evidently there is only one:
N-number Database Search Result
Last Database Update: Mon Aug 1 15:56:34 2005
To print registration information, check the checkbox for each registration to be printed and click on "Retrieve Selected Entries" at the bottom of the list.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Check for printing
N-number : N88SM
Aircraft Serial Number : 58-2166
Aircraft Manufacturer : CESSNA
Model : 309
Aircraft Year :
Owner Name : SALE REPORTED
Owner Address : P. O. BOX 25082
OKLAHOMA CITY, OK, 73125
Type of Owner : Government
Registration Date : Not Specified
Airworthiness Certificate Type : Not Specified
Since it's owned by the (a) government, and there only appears to be one of them, is it a military prototype?
Miles
Miles
“I envy no man that knows more than myself, but pity them that know less.”
— Thomas Browne
“I envy no man that knows more than myself, but pity them that know less.”
— Thomas Browne
-
cessna170bdriver
- Posts: 4112
- Joined: Mon Apr 22, 2002 5:13 pm
Still working on it....
A search for N88SM turns up the following at home.att.net/~jbaugher/1958.html :
58-2107/2186 Cessna L-27A-CE Blue Canoe
c/n 38081/38160
redesignated U-3A in 1962.
2107 converted to GU-3A. Now at Pima Air Museum, Tucson, AZ.
2111 at Selfridge, MI Museum
2115 to US Navy as BuNo 159073
2124 on display at WPAFB Museum.
2127 on display at Travis AFB Museum
2135 to US Navy as BuNo 159074
2166 (N88SM) on display at 45th Infantry Museum, OK.
2173 to civil registry as N85853.
The L27 and U3A are military designations for the 310, but the FAA database says that N88SM has only one engine... now I'm really confused!!
A search for N88SM turns up the following at home.att.net/~jbaugher/1958.html :
58-2107/2186 Cessna L-27A-CE Blue Canoe
c/n 38081/38160
redesignated U-3A in 1962.
2107 converted to GU-3A. Now at Pima Air Museum, Tucson, AZ.
2111 at Selfridge, MI Museum
2115 to US Navy as BuNo 159073
2124 on display at WPAFB Museum.
2127 on display at Travis AFB Museum
2135 to US Navy as BuNo 159074
2166 (N88SM) on display at 45th Infantry Museum, OK.
2173 to civil registry as N85853.
The L27 and U3A are military designations for the 310, but the FAA database says that N88SM has only one engine... now I'm really confused!!
Miles
“I envy no man that knows more than myself, but pity them that know less.”
— Thomas Browne
“I envy no man that knows more than myself, but pity them that know less.”
— Thomas Browne
-
cessna170bdriver
- Posts: 4112
- Joined: Mon Apr 22, 2002 5:13 pm
I'm beginning to think the Model 309 in the landings.com database is a data entry error (not the only one, I bet 
).
Found more at http://www.aerofiles.com/_cessna.html:
309 1953 = Prototypical design evaluations of 170-A through 1955. POP: 4.
Miles
).Found more at http://www.aerofiles.com/_cessna.html:
309 1953 = Prototypical design evaluations of 170-A through 1955. POP: 4.
Miles
Miles
“I envy no man that knows more than myself, but pity them that know less.”
— Thomas Browne
“I envy no man that knows more than myself, but pity them that know less.”
— Thomas Browne
-
N170BP
- Posts: 552
- Joined: Mon Jul 22, 2002 7:24 pm
A quick Google search (if ya ain't cheatin', ya ain't trying hard
enough!) says:
http://www.wingsoverkansas.com/features ... asp?id=461
Model 309/319--Cessna participated in Boundary Layer Control (BLC) research from 1951 to 1955 with the U.S. Navy and Wichita University using a stock 170A modified to house a small gas turbine in the fuselage which blew air over the wing (1951). The 309A, first flown in February 1952, used an engine-driven electric generator to operate large fans in the wings to generate the air; the 309B of 1953 and 309C in 1954 used dry chemicals that generated airflow across the wings and flaps.
enough!) says:
http://www.wingsoverkansas.com/features ... asp?id=461
Model 309/319--Cessna participated in Boundary Layer Control (BLC) research from 1951 to 1955 with the U.S. Navy and Wichita University using a stock 170A modified to house a small gas turbine in the fuselage which blew air over the wing (1951). The 309A, first flown in February 1952, used an engine-driven electric generator to operate large fans in the wings to generate the air; the 309B of 1953 and 309C in 1954 used dry chemicals that generated airflow across the wings and flaps.
Last edited by N170BP on Thu Aug 04, 2005 5:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
Bela P. Havasreti
'54 C-180
'54 C-180
-
4-Shipp
- Posts: 434
- Joined: Mon Apr 22, 2002 11:31 pm
Bella - You Da Man!!! Yes, there were three BLC 170s built. My book has some pictures but they are very small (1" x 2") and I haven't tried to scan them yet.
Another interesting aspect of the 309 series, besides the different air generating systems, was the trailing edge modifications. The picture shows a split aileron with both sections drooped with the flaps. The flaps apear to be standard length, but I can't tell if they are stock A model flaps or the high lift B model variety. In the picture the flaps are full down, the inboard half of the aileron is drooped approx 25-30 degrees and the outboard portion of the aileron is drooped 10-15 degrees.
The 309 first flew in 1951, the 309A in 1953 and the 309B in 1954. The experiments ended in 1955. They also modified an L-19 with the same "electric fans in the wing" system as the 309A. It was designated the 319A and had the similar drooped trailing edge but with high lift flaps and a square tail ala C180 flavor.
I'd love to have a set of these wings as I bet they would put a Horton STOL kit to shame. Very interesting history.
Now, what about that X-210????
Bruce
Another interesting aspect of the 309 series, besides the different air generating systems, was the trailing edge modifications. The picture shows a split aileron with both sections drooped with the flaps. The flaps apear to be standard length, but I can't tell if they are stock A model flaps or the high lift B model variety. In the picture the flaps are full down, the inboard half of the aileron is drooped approx 25-30 degrees and the outboard portion of the aileron is drooped 10-15 degrees.
The 309 first flew in 1951, the 309A in 1953 and the 309B in 1954. The experiments ended in 1955. They also modified an L-19 with the same "electric fans in the wing" system as the 309A. It was designated the 319A and had the similar drooped trailing edge but with high lift flaps and a square tail ala C180 flavor.
I'd love to have a set of these wings as I bet they would put a Horton STOL kit to shame. Very interesting history.
Now, what about that X-210????
Bruce
Bruce Shipp
former owners of N49CP, '53 C170B
former owners of N49CP, '53 C170B
-
N170BP
- Posts: 552
- Joined: Mon Jul 22, 2002 7:24 pm
Well it's only 10:20pm here, but it's tomorrow on the east
coast, so here goes....
via Google, the same web site:
http://www.wingsoverkansas.com/features ... asp?id=461
says:
Model X-210-Cessna's first 210 had no direct relationship to the later model of the same name, but was proposed in the late Forties as a possible replacement for the popular Model 195. The X-210 employed a 195 airframe and its cantilever wings, but in place of the 300 hp Jacobs radial was a horizontally opposed Continental O-470 of 240 horsepower. The reasoning was that the flat cowl presented much fewer square feet of frontal area. Wing tips and vertical and horizontal stabilizer had square tips instead of the rounded ones used on production 195s, the wings featured high-lift flaps, and the main gear was an innovative tapered tubular steel design.
[end quote]
Interestingly enough, about 2-3 months ago, there was a C-195
for sale in (I believe) Aero Trader (the fish-wrap airplanes
for sale magazine you find in 7-11s and Circle Ks, places like
that) that had a 337'd O-470 kludged onto the nose. The thing
looked like the devil hisseff (oh, the blasphemy... of pulling a
beautiful round motor off of a smart looking airplane like the 195
and bludgeoning an O-470 onto the nose!).
Do people have no shame at all?
coast, so here goes....
via Google, the same web site:
http://www.wingsoverkansas.com/features ... asp?id=461
says:
Model X-210-Cessna's first 210 had no direct relationship to the later model of the same name, but was proposed in the late Forties as a possible replacement for the popular Model 195. The X-210 employed a 195 airframe and its cantilever wings, but in place of the 300 hp Jacobs radial was a horizontally opposed Continental O-470 of 240 horsepower. The reasoning was that the flat cowl presented much fewer square feet of frontal area. Wing tips and vertical and horizontal stabilizer had square tips instead of the rounded ones used on production 195s, the wings featured high-lift flaps, and the main gear was an innovative tapered tubular steel design.
[end quote]
Interestingly enough, about 2-3 months ago, there was a C-195
for sale in (I believe) Aero Trader (the fish-wrap airplanes
for sale magazine you find in 7-11s and Circle Ks, places like
that) that had a 337'd O-470 kludged onto the nose. The thing
looked like the devil hisseff (oh, the blasphemy... of pulling a
beautiful round motor off of a smart looking airplane like the 195
and bludgeoning an O-470 onto the nose!).
Do people have no shame at all?
Bela P. Havasreti
'54 C-180
'54 C-180
-
doug8082a
- Posts: 1373
- Joined: Tue Apr 23, 2002 2:06 am
When bad things happen to good airplanes....
It's for sale in TAP as we speak. Located in San Diego - $35k and it's yours. It's been for sale off and on for about a year. No one seems to want it - can't say as I blame them. What the heck were they thinking???
It's for sale in TAP as we speak. Located in San Diego - $35k and it's yours. It's been for sale off and on for about a year. No one seems to want it - can't say as I blame them. What the heck were they thinking???
Last edited by doug8082a on Thu Aug 04, 2005 4:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Doug
-
N170BP
- Posts: 552
- Joined: Mon Jul 22, 2002 7:24 pm
Yup, that's what I saw (said in best imitated Aussie accent).
Geeze that thing is ugly...
He'd have to pay me $5K or so just to fly it home
(what if somebody saw you flying it?).
On the other hand, $35K for a flying 195 is cheap.
Guess a guy could sneak it home at night and
yank that O-470 off the nose and start gathering
the parts/components to make her right again.
Geeze that thing is ugly...
He'd have to pay me $5K or so just to fly it home
(what if somebody saw you flying it?).
On the other hand, $35K for a flying 195 is cheap.
Guess a guy could sneak it home at night and
yank that O-470 off the nose and start gathering
the parts/components to make her right again.
Bela P. Havasreti
'54 C-180
'54 C-180
-
doug8082a
- Posts: 1373
- Joined: Tue Apr 23, 2002 2:06 am
Yeah, who'd want to be caught flying it? As for converting it back, that would be pricier (I bet) than buying a straight 195. Obviously the engine, mount, accessories, cowling, prop, et al would have to be changed out. But also the little vertical fins on the tail would have to go and the landing gear would need to be replaced as it has "wider, lower gear". Who knows what else has been done to it. Then there's the paperwork and approvals. Not a project for the faint of heart.
The ad says "needs love", Boy, does it ever!
It's kinda like a dog at the pound looking at you with those big, sad, "please take me home" eyes. I almost feel sorry for it.
Not a project for the faint of heart.The ad says "needs love", Boy, does it ever!
It's kinda like a dog at the pound looking at you with those big, sad, "please take me home" eyes. I almost feel sorry for it.Doug
-
GAHorn
- Posts: 21281
- Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2002 8:45 pm
I didn't feel it would have been fair for me to chime in on this one... so I'm glad to see the correct answer finally appear.
A pretty good picture of one can be found on page 34 of Wm. Thompson's book "Cessna, Wings for the World". (Note the triple trailing edge devices made up of an Inboard Flap, and Outboard Flap, and a drooping aileron.) It also contains a very good schematic of the methods used to generate the boundary flow air. The aircraft helped pioneer BLC systems later used on the F-4 Phantom.
A pretty good picture of one can be found on page 34 of Wm. Thompson's book "Cessna, Wings for the World". (Note the triple trailing edge devices made up of an Inboard Flap, and Outboard Flap, and a drooping aileron.) It also contains a very good schematic of the methods used to generate the boundary flow air. The aircraft helped pioneer BLC systems later used on the F-4 Phantom.
'53 B-model N146YS SN:25713
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight Convention.
An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons.
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight Convention.
An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons.
Cessna® is a registered trademark of Textron Aviation, Inc. The International Cessna® 170 Association is an independent owners/operators association dedicated to C170 aircraft and early O-300-powered C172s. We are not affiliated with Cessna® or Textron Aviation, Inc. in any way.