Ethanol, another nail in the coffin of GA

[Bruce Fenstermacher]

It was about 2 weeks ago when I first heard a short note on the local news that congress mandated Ethanol in all mogas. I don't know it I heard that right nor did the implications of that sink in right away.

About a week ago I realized I'd no longer be able to find mogas without Ethanol in it if what I'd heard was true and of course it seemed so as one of the reasons given for the rising mogas prices was the cost of adding the Ethanol.

I started searching the internet looking at the EAA and AOPA site and NOT ONE WORD about it. There were articles about individual states considering it but in all those situations it was either dropped all together or modified to not include 91 octane.

I just got gas in my car at my favorite gas station and it wasn't the $3 gallon that hurt so much as the brand new Ethanol warning sticker on the pump.

I've got to tell you this could be the straw that breaks the camels back for me. I simply will not have any fun putting 100LL in my 170 at the price ($4.35) and in reality I can't afford the 100LL

I never thought I'd sell my 170 but I can see it sitting WAY to much and that may become a reality. Of course I still have my Cub which sips gas at 4 gph and only holds 12 gal of gas. $47 to fill the Cub is what it used to cost to fly my 170 for the average $100 breakfast.

If I didn't already own an airplane I'd NEVER consider purchasing one now.

I can't help but wonder how many other aircraft owners feel the same as me.

It is a sad day in Mudville.

[Indopilot]

Maybe we could arrange for a Diamond Twin to rip the wings off outboard of the engines in front of our hanger and quickly install diesels on our planes?
I saw a blurb also about the ethanol on the news and wondered about it. Brian

[bradbrady]

Bruce,
I feel your pain, At 1.35 a gallon ethonal wasn't a viable fuel. At 4.00 it just became usefull. Coming from the midwest and a farmer (In a pryer life) I like the use of ethonal The EAA has been working on the use of ethonal for some time. I just wrote you back so maby we can get some disscution on the use of ethonal and the cost to make our aircraft ready to use the fuel,
brad

[Bruce Fenstermacher]

Actually Brad in my research i came a crossed a fuel called AGE85 which is 88 volume% (vol%) ethanol, 11 vol% pentane isomerate, a high-octane (88 [R+M]/2), 100% aliphatic gasoline blendstock, 1 vol% biodiesel (must meet ASTM PS 121 specifications)

http://www.age85.org/
http://www.fuelandfiber.com/Archive/Fue ... age85.html

I couldn't believe it. We are being told that any alcohol (Ethanol) in our fuel is a NO NO and here is a fuel the is 88% Ethanol.

And did you see the other ingredient. Biodiesel! Wonder if the biodiesel is sort of like should I say it George........MMO? Of course with out the red dye and perfume.

Of course if we could get the 82UL at our field we would in effect have mogas though I doubt in the small quantities delivered at the airport there would be and difference in price. In fact now that 82UL will have to be blended different than car mogas I'm sure that won't be available anywhere either.

Another BIG problem that most airports have is they only have 1 storage container. Getting another one installed is cost prohibitive and just will never happen. If there is only going to be one fuel it's going to be 100LL.

I can't go down the street and get 82UL or AGE85 or any other alternative fuel that they come up with UNLESS it's mogas at the corner gas station.

[futr_alaskaflyer]

If I didn't already own an airplane I'd NEVER consider purchasing one now.

I can't help but wonder how many other aircraft owners feel the same as me.

It is a sad day in Mudville.

Yeah, I should probably have my head examined Could I have picked a worse time to delve into ownership? 170 prices spiking, fuel prices spiking...the only good news is (according to some) insurance prices in Alaska actually went down a bit in the last year or two, don't know if that's true though.

I was really planning on using avgas, especially considering there is no public fuel at my airport.

Alaska may be in better shape than many states for now, but if ethanol goes nationwide...

Someone will just have to develop an STC that retrofits for, and allows, ethanol mix. Someone other than me

[blueldr]

Except for the regulations, why are so many people apparently afraid of using mogas containing ethanol? How is your automobile doing on that fuel? I can't tell a bit of difference in any of my Ford Explorers, and they certainly have a considerably more sophisticated engine than my C-170,which, incidentally, has the technology of about a '34 Chevy.
All of the mogas I've tested here in California checks out right at 5% alcohol and my airplaneseems to thrive on it.
All of the guys that I know that are flying sport pilot airplanes with Rotax or Jaiburu engines are using mogas because the manufacturers of the engines recommend against 100LL.

[flat country pilot]

Can we agree that renewable fuels are here to stay? I think yes. Ethanol is high priced now because the infrastructure is way behind the mandates which makes the supply far behind the demand.

In ND we have two new ethanol plants being built now, one later this summer and two new biodiesel plants. This fuel is real and here to stay.

I am a farmer and one thing farmers are good at is over producing and wrecking markets. We do it to ourselves with everything we grow. If the ethanol infrustructure does get caught up with the demand and farmers have any influence, we will wreck this market too.

This will take time, but I think that eventually supply will overcome demand and ethanol prices will fall well below where they are today. When this happens, I want to be ready to use it in my plane.

I am also dissappointed that I don't see AOPA all over this.

Bill

[Bill Hart]

You know Bruce I was going to ask you about owning two airplanes. I am thinking about picking up a J3 not because of operating expense but I just like flying the thing and I know the guy getting rid of it. (His job was transferred) But if it came down to one or the other I’m keeping the 170.

I honestly don’t think that you can fly as cheaply in any airplane as you can in a 170 and be able to travel with fiends and bags. I had to sell my 182 because my partner retired and flying was something that he could no longer afford and I could not afford the operating expense of the 182. My first airplane was a C-150 and I would say that the operating expense is comparable to the 170, not including insurance, and I can carry my family with me where as with the 150 it was just me and the dog. Even then we were over gross. What I got a big dog.

I have friends that are buying LSA’s that don’t have half of the performance of the 170 and the cost are astounding to me I couldn’t afford to fly one of these new Cub knock off’s that cost 70 or 80 grand. I guess what I am saying is if people are buying these LSA’s then we are not seeing the end of GA.

[Bruce Fenstermacher]

First for the farmers out there I'm not against Ethanol or a renewable source of fuel.

I'm against having to pay the cost of 100LL which I just can't afford.

Bill I don't think those buying $80K LSA are the average GA pilot. I think there are a lot more like me just scraping and spending money they shouldn't to fly.

Yes I have 2 airplanes and most times I shouldn't have any. Combined they both cost me less than an SUV which I don't have either.

This is not just about me though. We are always reading about all the alphabet groups pushing for more affordable flying with things like the LSA, yet a large source of a cheaper viable fuel disappears over night and NO ONE SEEMS TO NOTICE.

[Bill Hart]

Don’t get me wrong. I am with you on the fuel issue. I find it hard to believe that the price of gas has gone up as much as it has lately and I too noticed the new sticker on the pump where I was getting my auto fuel.

But you say that the average GA pilots are not the ones buying new airplanes. If they are not then who is buying all of the new Cessna and Cirrus airplanes that are littering the ramps at most of the GA ramps that I visit.

Now I can’t afford that type of flying but someone sure can. I just have not reached my discomfort level with the price of gas yet and it sounds as if you have. I just hate to see someone stop flying when things are really not as bad as they seem. I am just old enough to remember the oil shortage of the 70’s but not old enough to know what was happening with avgas at the time but I would be willing to bet there were a lot of people who thought that they would never see the day when GA would recover, but it has.

My glass is never half empty it runneth over.

Now watch out if there comes a time when user fees are implemented then I will be out of the flying game faster than a duck on a june bug.

[webmaster]

You might want to check out http://www.age85.org/. If they can get an STC for a C180, getting one for a C170 shouldn't be insurmountable.

This doesn't address the cost of fuel issue, though. The days of cheap (less than $2 per gallon) fuel will never be seen again.

Along with cost, we also need to worry about supply. With demands for oil increasing world-wide, its not too hard to imagine rationing of GA aviation fuels.

I've cut back on my flying, but I enjoy it too much to give it up completely. I'll ride my bicycle more, so I don't have to put as much gas in my cars and am able to put some in my plane.

Cheers!

[N3243A]

Is the production of ethanol worth the energy it takes to produce it? When you add up all the costs associated, including the farm machinery to plant it, grow it, fertilize it, (And guess what fertilizer is made from? A large part is fossil fuels!) harvest it, then transport the product to an ethanol plant where more energy must be consumed to turn the harvest into the raw ethanol you have a net loss of fuel consumed vs. new fuel created. Then there is the issue of government farm subsidies which is entangled into the whole price equation and it gets very complicated. One could view the production of ethanol and its blending into gasoline stocks to "save energy" as a huge hoax and worse, a net loss of pretroluem to everyone.

No offense to the farming community (and I am from the midwest) but this whole ethanol thing doesn't add up to me.

Some links for a different perspective on this:

http://www.news.cornell.edu/stories/Jul ... y.ssl.html

http://zfacts.com/p/60.html

Bruce Christie

[N1277D]

I am sure one could develop a method to remove the ethenol from car gas. bludr hinted on a technique, long ago and there would be a market for the system. Processes of this type have been used for more than 50 years to separate liquids in solution and are widely used in the development of film and in the chemical industries.

In Idaho there was a bill being considered that mandated ethonal in all gas. This bill did not pass because of the wide variety of consumers whose gas powered machines would not work because of it. The snowmachine groups, the ag producers, boaters, etc and the EAA all fought against it and the bill died in committee. In Idaho the EAA proposed language that would only require ethanol for low octane fuels, the 92 octane would remain. This bill also did not pass.

[Bruce Fenstermacher]

Well guess what. From what I understand ALL 50 states are getting it ethanol now.

I've also heard the economics behind ethanol don't add up when all the petroleum used to create it is added up.

Dale I pointed out the AGE85 fuel in my earlier post. SO has ANYONE heard any noise from the EAA about getting ethanol approved in their STC.

NOPE not a word.

Bill I believe the average GA pilot does not own an aircraft. So gather 10 active pilots who don't own aircraft and ask them how many are planning to shell out $250,000 for that New Cessna. Then ask them how many are planning to shell out $80,000 for a 2 seat LSA. Yes you will find a few but I think you'll find the average GA pilot is just looking for the next hours rent.

[mbram]

From the Charlotte Observer 26 April 2006
But the annual changeover is more complicated this year because many refineries are using ethanol as a replacement for MTBE, a fuel additive that has been linked to water pollution. The increased demand for ethanol has raised concerns about possible shortages that could lead to even higher prices in parts of the country
http://www.charlotte.com/mld/charlotte/ ... 9418.htmry.

New additions for my fly away kit 2 sets of spark plugs 1 mallet to stake the valves
and a jug of tcp.


When I purchased this aircraft last year I planned on building hours for the atp
I need 800 hours or about $14,000.00 -$16,000 at last years prices using 50/50 auto gas
And 100LL. now the price will be $28,000.00 $30,000.00 for 100LL. That equates
to many more hours at work and less hours available for flying and Hiking.

The Cessna 170 gets better gas mileage than a large number of other RV’s
I am going to stay course for now.

Diesel may provide the long term solution for fuel. One engine has been
Certified for the 172 and others are in development.

http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/tfacts91.html
http://www.epa.gov/swerust1/mtbe/

diesel http://www.faa.gov/other_visit/aviation ... Diesel.pdf
http://www.centurion-engines.com/
http://www.ainonline.com/Publications/P ... erpd1.html
http://www.deltahawkengines.
http://www.dieselaero.com
http://www.dieselair.com/
http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_mike.html#water
http://www.biodiesel.org/
http://www.pacificbiomass.org/documents ... orCted.pdf

http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_an ... enDocument