Experimental category aircraft

[Jr.CubBuilder]

Please note that this thread originated in the TradeMart under a 170 for sale that is in the Experimantal Category. -Moderator

Total time airframe 2146 hours
N3JX / Ser. # 25248
Contenental TSIO-360A (210 H.P.) TTSN 1188 hours
McCauley constant speed prop, 248 hours since overhaul


AVIONICS:

Nav/Com #1 KX-165A
Nav/Com #2 KX-155A
ILS/LOC/Audio KMA-28
KI-525A HSI with KG-102A & dual GS
KLN-94 interfaced with WX-500 stormscope
KMD-550 moving map interfaced with traffic from KT-73 Mode "S" transponder
ADC-200 fuel management system
M-877 clock
MD 41-528 annunciator
Cooling fan
HG-258 AI & KA-51B slave
Talking check list
six point EGT & CHT by Alcor



INTERIOR & EXTERIOR:

Leather interior
25 gal in each wing & 13 gal Aux tank in fuselage (63 total)
12.5 gal/hour
Shoulder straps
24 volt system with 12 volt outlet
Baggage door
Ground assist handles in tail
Cleveland wheels & brakes
Drooping wingtips
Grimes rotating beacon
Strobe lights
Scott 3200 TW
Heavy sound-proofing


EXPERIMENTAL/EXHIBITION-OTHER category

Aircraft is undergoing its annual "condition inspection" now.

I can e-mail pictures to anyone interested.

ASKING PRICE IS $78,000.00.

Is this airplane useable in the same manner as a certified or home built airplane or does it have to be operated in some restricted castagory such as development or exhibition? Can it be flown to visit aunt Minnie who lives three states away without the permission of the FUZZ (FAA)? Could it be legally flown without special permission to Petit John or the TIC170A Convention?

Special Airworthiness Certificate
Experimental Category

A special airworthiness certificate in the experimental category is issued to operate an aircraft that does not have a type certificate or does not conform to its type certificate and is in a condition for safe operation. Additionally, this certificate is issued to operate a primary category kit-built aircraft that was assembled without the supervision and quality control of the production certificate holder.

Special airworthiness certificates may be issued in the experimental category for the following purposes:
Research and development: to conduct aircraft operations as a matter of research or to determine if an idea warrants further development. Typical uses for this certificate include new equipment installations, operating techniques, or new uses for aircraft.
Showing compliance with regulations: to show compliance to the airworthiness regulations when an applicant has revised the type certificate design data or has applied for a supplemental type certificate or field approval.
Crew training: for training the applicant’s flight crews in experimental aircraft for subsequent operation of aircraft being flight tested in type certificate programs or for production flight testing.
Exhibition: to exhibit an aircraft’s flight capabilities, performance, or unusual characteristics for air shows, motion pictures, television, and similar productions, and for the maintenance of exhibition flight proficiency.
Air racing: to operate an aircraft in air races, practice for air races, and to fly to and from racing events.
Market surveys: to conduct market surveys, sales demonstrations, and customer crew training for U.S. manufacturers of aircraft or engines.

http://www.faa.gov/aircraft/air_cert/ai ... xperiment/

[Bruce Fenstermacher]

OK JR lets discuss this. What category of experimental do you think this aircraft falls under?

The R&D on is for a limited time and the aircraft either has to be returned to another category or another experimental certificate sought. And there are restrictions. The only other one this fall under might be Exhibition but there are restrictions there as well. Granted the restrictions may not be very restricting.

A amateur home built experimental is yet another category. An yes there can be restrictions places on your RV by the FAA inspector. Things such as no IFR or night or no flight over populated areas. And I'm not talking about just the first 25 or 40 hours but if the FAA inspector wants they can be permanent. restrictions. Not likely if you have an RV but it can happen.

I had a friend who owned an experimental Pitts. He'd had it a few years and was flying aerobatics with it when he noticed it was restricted from aerobatics. No why else would you have a Pitts? He had to develop a flight test program and fly 20 hours of logged aerobatic maneuvers with flight test results in a restricted area 100 nm away before the FSDO inspector would grant new operating limitations.

So BL's question is a good one and one someone interested in the airplane would want to know.

[blueldr]

The reason I asked the questions is because many unknowing pilots might be terribly surprised, not to mention really PO'd, if they found they had acquired an airplane they really couldn't use as they planned.
Some years ago I did a condition inspection on a legally tailwheeled
C-172 that had gone experimental with the installation of a Lycoming 200HP IO-360 engine. The owner fought the FUZZ for almost five years, but they always came up with something else to keep him experimental and limited to his designated development airport limits. He finally threw in the towel and sold it,after explaining it all to the buyer,who managed to get it up to Alaska where it was finally approved and the flight restrictions removed.
Our friends in the FAA used to be tasked with promoting aviation.

[Jr.CubBuilder]

I'm not arguing anything Bruce (if that's what you thought?) I was curious myself and pulled that up from the FAA site then cut and pasted.

I'm curious, I've heard of heavily modified planes that were previously certified being put together and given "experimental" status. I've heard that unless it's a homebuilt, "experimental" status means you have to get a ferry permit to fly it around and that certain old warbirds do as well.

It seems like the first paragraph says in black and white that the FAA can issue an experimental certificate for a safe machine that has been modified beyond its type certificate............so that seems to be saying that you could then fly it around just like a homebuilt.(?) Or not!?! I do know enough about bureaucracy that I wouldn't modify my plane to that catagory untill I had things sorted out. Then again, who's going to notice if you leave your farm strip and fly somewhere?

[Bruce Fenstermacher]

Jr it's a discussion not an argument and didn't mean to imply anything else.

I am certainly no expert but from my research generally speaking there is no way to put a certified aircraft into the experimental category and fly it around without some restrictions. Granted the restrictions may not be very restrictive. We are not talking Experimental Home Built but as I said they can have restrictions as well.

For example at one time we had a fellow who owned and flew a Russian AN2. These planes are not certified in the U.S. and so he flew it under Experimental Exhibition. He had to inform the FAA and his flight approved every time he left his local airport and limited flying area. For the most part he flew it to one pancake breakfast or local fly-in after the other so once a year he would compile a list of every fly-in and pancake breakfast there was in the east coast and submit it to the FSDO.

Every time he flew he was either on a maintenance flight which was allowed without notification or going to or from one of those events he had listed. It's BS but it worked for him and the FSDO guys who really didn't care but had to place some type of limits on his flying and know what he was doing with the plane.

[Metal Master]

Jr
For example at one time we had a fellow who owned and flew a Russian AN2. These planes are not certified in the U.S. and so he flew it under Experimental Exhibition. He had to inform the FAA and his flight approved every time he left his local airport and limited flying area. For the most part he flew it to one pancake breakfast or local fly-in after the other so once a year he would compile a list of every fly-in and pancake breakfast there was in the east coast and submit it to the FSDO. ...

This is very similar to the experimental motor glider I just sold over Christmas new years. The glider was a manufactured glider. Built in Popov Gremany by Schleicher in 1970. It was imported to the United States in 1971. It was listed as being manufactured in 1971 on the US register. The aircraft was Experimental Exhibition & Racing. It required a condition inspection each year.
It could not have an annual inspection because it had no Type Certificate or Type Certificate Data sheet. An annual Inspection is to inspect an aircraft yearly to be certain that the aircraft still conforms to its Type certificate Data and or it’s properly modified & certified configuration. So it got a condition inspection annually.
Things were Happy and no flight restrictions were put on the glider other than those which it could not do after all it was a glider. Some time in the 1980s the glider was sold into Canada. When I bought it in the late 1990’s I imported back into the United States and repaired it after the Canadian owner severely damaged it landing short of a runway when he could not get the engine started because he left the mags off while trying to make the start.
Re-importing it to the United States at this time the FAR & Guidance had changed so that in order to fly it I had to write a “Program Letter” each year listing all of the Races, Exhibitions and Events I planned to attend. I tried to find every fly in, goat rope & Glider event or regatta I could find to put on the letter. Beyond that I was only allowed to fly within a 300 mile radius of my home airport and then only for currency & training. I was not allowed to land at any airport except my home airport. I was also not allowed to carry any passengers beyond required crew. I thought this last part was sort of funny as the letter was written by my PMI for this airplane, glider and it was a single seat glider. It could not carry passengers.
This is probably the most common form of Experimental airplane category next to a home built, the most common. (There are many factory built experimental gliders in the US). It is also the catagory that most ex military airplanes are are in.
The other forms of experimental certificates are such that JR previously outlined.

[sphillips]

We just certfified our T2-B Buckeye in multipurpose Experimental to include: Air Racing, R&D, & Exhibition. Log entry takes it from one to the other over the course of the year.

[voorheesh]

I believe that experimental exhibition aircraft owners have operating limitations that require them to send the FAA a program letter each year stating where they will fly the aircraft. Depending on FSDO, this can be a broad or limited area. Then they can fly in that area all year without asking anyone. If something comes up where they want to go out of the area, they just write their FSDO and request it. You also have to really read operating limitations and follow FARs for other possible restrictions.

[sphillips]

Currently we are allowed 600nm radius from our base of operations. Each year we submit a letter of events to be attended. Any other events that come up we submit by fax to the controlling FSDO for that added event. We have seven planes that we submit for every year, five if which do contract work at EDW and the National Test Pilot School in Mojave. The FAA is considering removing the 600nm requirement presumably to reduce paperwork and workload. It is a ridiculous requirement anyway.

[voorheesh]

The Blanik L13 at our glider club is Experi/Ehib and we are limited to 300 miles. If we wanted to attend an event outside of this area we would have to request it. But that has not happened yet. So we get to fly the ship from our strip with virtually no other hassles except one letter per year which is returned from FAA with an "approved" stamp.

[sphillips]

Why is you L13 Experimental? Been modified?

[Plummit]

Deleted

[voorheesh]

Our L13 did not have an airworthiness certificate when it was purchased. I was told that the easiest way to get it in the air was to apply to FAA for experi/exhib which was done. We never "exhibit" it. It is flown by club members. We use it for spin/CFI training.

[sphillips]

Yes, but it does have a type certificate, so, why experimental?

[voorheesh]

I will find out and get back to you.