Night Over Water w/Pax?

[dacker]

This morning CNN had news on a small airplane that went down in Lake Erie... night, overwater, with children passengers in a single engine. I just have to shake my head at this one. What ever happened to teaching head work and passenger responsibility? At least one of the passengers survived (seven years old was reported). According to the news, someone rowed a half mile out to try and help and found the boy.
David

[Iceman07]

"What ever happened to teaching head work and passenger responsibility?"

"someone rowed a half mile out"

Wow, a half mile off shore at night in a tiny little airplane?!!! I'll bet they didn't file a flight plan, eithier!!!

When are these "Tom Cruise Wannabes" gonna stop killing little children?

[Bruce Fenstermacher]

David I understand what your talking about. Many people don't think about the consequence of their actions if things don't go right. In this case the kids I'm sure had no idea the risk or reward. Like billions of decisions before and to come in the future, they had no input in the decision. We feel badly about that and are pretty quick to judge.

Flying over water in the day time farther than I can auto rotate or glide to the shore gives me cause for concern and I as a matter of course don't do it. Night time would be worse. And then when the water gets cold, no way. This is me, it's one of my personal limitations as of right now subject to change in the future.

On the other hand there are many people who think I'm nuts flying EMS landing at night in unimproved areas and routinely flying in low weather. Of course there is a risk with every reward. We do it because we feel the reward of helping someone outweighs the risk. It's called risk analysis.

I doubt this father considered the risk verses the reward. The reward of possibly getting someplace quicker going directly over water. On the other hand had they been over land at night would the outcome been any different? Possibly the plane might have hit homes and killed more people, perhaps they would have all walked away.

Hind sight is always 20/20. We know they would have been better not getting out of bed that morning, or do we?

[jrenwick]

One of the things I've learned while flying over water is that you can be in IMC with unlimited ceiling and 10 miles of visibility. All it takes is enough haze to obscure the horizon. This is common over the Great Lakes.

Last time I did this, I was flying in loose formation with another aircraft, both carrying life rafts. I thought we had a better safety factor than if we'd all been together in a twin. That allowed me to bend my personal limit, which is that I won't normally fly out of gliding distance of land.

I've lived a few years in Hawaii. During that time, a number of planes ditched. The survivors were the ones who were able to ditch within a mile of shore. (I wasn't aware of any night ditchings.) But with kids, it's a different matter altogether, and even adults can die swimming in too-cold water.

[Hawkeyenfo]

Good points Bruce.

Do we know what the decision factors were here? How many times the same type of flight had been flown by the family? Experience level of the pilot?

There are a number of things that go into a decision matrix. One person's comfort and experience level is not always the same as another's. Does that make it wrong? Not necessarily.

If one were to make decisions on passengers based on the passengers' ability to resasonably understand the risks involved with flying in any single engine plane, then we may never take children flying until they could understand death and it's finality. At what age does that occur?

Just my 2 cents......worth nothing in most circles......

[cessna170bdriver]

Broad daylight, about 6:30pm, over land. Having been into this airport many times, I have my own suspicions about what happened, but I'll leave the probable cause to the NTSB.

http://abclocal.go.com/kabc/story?secti ... id=5625054

Miles

[Iceman07]

"I have my own suspicions about what happened"

Could your suspicions have something to do with

a) 6 people in a four-place airplane.
b) They were going camping, so they must have had at least some gear with them.
c) the high temp that day at Kernville was 104?
d)The height of IYK is 2457?

[dacker]

First to clarify, "Iceman". If you are anyone else wants to fly at night offshore, knock your socks off. Perhaps you have children that have had water egress training and they routinely escape from a sinking airplane in the black of night... mine haven't and I suspect that the children in the mishap airplane hadn't either.

When I mentioned that someone rowed a half mile, it wasn't to point out the distance from shore but to point out that someone had to row a boat to the scene and rescued a child. The distance from shore doesn't matter, the airplane didn't make it!

Perhaps I am being a bit judgemental of the mishap pilot... the only thing that I know is what was reported, and that is he departed at night from some island on Lake Erie and didn't make it to his destination but instead landed/crashed a half mile offshore. My problem with this accident was the fact that he had his children on board and it appears that it was an extended overwater flight at night, which is perfectly legal. I am sure the investigation will tell the story, and it may even prove that this wasn't the case at all and I criticized wrongly.

But lets talk about extended overwater flight at night with pax...
The bulk of my flight time (how little it may be) is overwater, with quite a bit of that at night. The rules I had to live by did not allow any pax onboard at night unless they had egress training. As an example, helicopter operators in the Gulf of Mexico don't fly pax at night unless it involves a multi-engine IFR helicopter. These rules were written by people with way more experience than me so it just isn't something that I would do. I don't even think this is a scenario where I would take into account the experience of the pilot... that is irrelevent since we all know that airplane engines quit on both good and bad pilots.

What I believe is relevant is the belief that when you become a pilot, whether Private, Commercial or ATP, you are supposed to exercise judgement that pertains to the safety of the flight and most importantly the safety of your passengers. That doesn't mean that you load your trusting family up in the airplane then go scud running at night through the mountains, or on an extended flight overwater (in my opinion). I believe in always trying to have an out.

Sorry for preaching.

Oh yeah, Bruce you still the man! I don't think many people know the butt clenching feeling of lowering your helicopter into an unprepared landing zone at night!

David

[Iceman07]

David, I really don't want to get in an argument over this, but...

"But lets talk about extended overwater flight"

As far as I can tell, Kelly's Island is, at best, about 6 miles offshore. I, personally, would not consider 6 miles "extended overwater flight". But that's me.

Second, I fly with my daughter who is 11 YO. And some of my realtives are aghast that I "allow" her to fly in my 170. At all. At anytime.

the point I was trying to make is that if you are that worried about putting your children at risk, they really should not fly in any GA aircraft at anytime. Day, night, over land, over water, doesn't matter. GA is not safe.

I guess it really boils down to ones own safety standards.

Would I fly 6 miles over water at night in a single engine airplane. Yes, probably. Would I fly the North Atlantic? No. But other people have.

Would you fly single engine IMC? I would, but there are lots of people who would not.

What I took issue with was your condemnation of the pilot, primarily becuase the airplane went down in water. Would you have been as harsh if he would have crashed into a forest and everyone on board was killed? Or, is crashing at night into a heavily forested area somehow better than a forced landing into the water?

[N2865C]

I don't want to get involved in the who should be doing what and when discussion, but there are a lot of misconceptions about ditching. Here are a couple of very good articles that appeared in Aviation Safety that shed some light on over-water flight.

http://www.equipped.com/ditchingmyths.htm
and
http://www.equipped.org/watertrees.htm

The hat shelf is the perfect size for 2 flotation cushions. I live near the coast and keep them there if I will be over the water.

[dacker]

No we certaianly don't need to get into an argument! I thought your sarcasm a bit abrupt but that is OK! I find the different views on this subject interesting!

Allow me to try to express my views (I know, it will sound preachy, but bear with me for the sake of discussion).

You have to understand, I don't have a problem with overwater flight, I just feel that most people don't understand the full implications of ditching at night. I don't think it would be easy for a child to get out of an upside down airplane (re: the post about the overturned amphib). I have not addressed the use of rafts and inflatable life preservers... that would certainly be a step in the right direction and required if Part 135.

I don't dispute the survivability of ditching... I have been personally involved in the rescue of people from a helicopter that ditched (all survived), and was secondarily involved in a general aviation airplane that ditched (all survived). But these were all day time. Have you ever tried to flare to a landing on water at night (please don't try), I don't think that our little landing light will help as much as we would like. At the least it would be pretty dicey.

I generally don't take my children with me at night (I do love flying at night though). If I were in a situation where I would be over inhospitable terrain at night, I would try to fly with enough altitude for as much of the flight as possible so that I would have choices when the engine quits (I realize that there are times when there just isn't much we can do about it). Nothing is a guarantee, but we try, or at least should try, to stack the deck in our favor as much as possible, and like I tried to say before... we carry a profound responsibility to insure the safety of our passengers (especially the little ones). Three miles from land (the half way point and the farthes point from land as you described the six mile distance the island is from land) isn't far to glide if you have the altitude, but it could be a long way to swim with an injury.

Someone mentioned flying single engine on instruments, I do but I have a personal limit of a five hundred foot ceiling!

I realize that there are inherent dangers in most everything we do, but I believe we can avoid some of the bigger ones with just a little planning or by just saying no. Maybe I am too cautious, but it seems to work have worked for me so far.

My two cents (or was that seventy-five cents worth?).

David

[KMac]

I have tried to study this a little since I like to fly to Catalina Island every once in a while (it is more than 26 miles over water by the way). Our local FSDO had a meeting where four gentlemen told of their ditching in the Gulf of Californa in a Cherokee. Two aircraft were flying to Baja and filming the expedition (two occupants in each). They actually had some film of the trip up to the point where the cherokee lost power and started gliding. I also spoke to a fish spotter who ditched a texas taildragger 150. The Coast gaurd gave a class at the San Diego super safety day - or what ever it was called. For what it is worth here are some things they taught:

How slow and smoothly you can "land" on the water makes a lot of difference. The height above the water is dificult to judge but if you look, realitive to the sun there will be a sheen on the water one way and none the other. The sheen will help you judge your height.

They recommend trying to land tail low so that the tail of the airplane drags in the water first and slows the landing speed.

Have survival gear in a fanny pack or something that you actually wear while you are over the water.

Survival gear can include a PFD, locator dye, knife, glow sticks, mirror (or CD), a pealess whistle, strobe light etc.

Put a shoe in the door while gliding in to keep it open on landing.

Have your passenger put thier hand on the door, side of the seat or somewhere that will help them keep orientated in the water if the aircraft flips over.

Ditch near a boat or shore.

Communicate for help.

The Cherokee apparently went under the water quickly and the passenger had to pull the pilot out of the plane. Their whole story is amazing. They had life jackets but they were in the back where they couldn't get to them in time. The pilot and passenger of the second plane ended up saving them.

The fish spotter did not flip over and actually floated for a while. The pilot got out and sat on the wing. His only injuries were to his face and chest from hitting the yoke and instrument panel (he didn't have shoulder harnesses)

Both the Baja group and the Coast Gaurd stressed how difficult it is to find someone in the ocean - so anything you do to make that easier is good.

All the survivors said ditching is a very violent experience.

Although I fly over water a little I wouldn't fly over water at night. Like others have said - that is beyond my comfort factor. I don't fly at night over land either. If I were flying at night and the c-145 decided to take an unscheduled break, I might like my chances ditching as opposed to landing where I know there are big rocks and trees and very hard ground that I can't see.

Kevin

[gwillford]

This has been on my mind a lot also as this accident occurred in my area. I have flown off of this strip quite a few times and yes, with family members. Two boys, just like this dad did. Son number one just got his private ticket. Son number 2 is itching to get his. As sad as this was, it has been a good opportunity to talk to them and learn from other's experiences. Thought I would share my observations. This island is about 5-6 miles north of the mainland of Ohio. It is an E-W strip. Trees on the south side. The Erie shore right off the east end. Short but manageable. Winds can be an issue at times due to the trees mixing it up a bit. As reported, the a/c took off to the east and turned right after lift off. It was dark, little wind reported. It should be noted that there is no land visible when taking off to the east. With this scenario, that would be a dark sky and dark water. A black hole. If possible, local pilots try to take off to the west at night to pick up island and mainland nights. Most don't try to attempt at night. The plane was just brought up on shore. A friend just sent me pictures. It appears (to me) that he hit hard and was not attempting to ditch. The left wing was swept back, prop was separated from engine, engine separated from firewall. Cabin area was crushed. Aft fuselage was all but severed at the baggage/ rear seat area. This must be where the young boy was thrown out. Spacial disorientation resulting in uncontrolled impact with the water? Made worse by a problem with the O-300? We may never know. Nevertheless, we can learn from it. Always have a plan B. Anticipate a problem. Let's be careful.

George