Lycoming O-360 Conversion TBO

jaime72 · Post by **jaime72** » Mon Feb 25, 2008 1:24 am

Hello all,

I have been a long time "lurker" to your world here at Cessna170.org. I am a student pilot flying in a Citabria looking for a Cessna 170 to complete my training in and fly the heck out of. I am located in Anchorage, AK. I had a question about a Cessna 170 I am looking at.

This is a 1954 170B with the Avcon O-360 conversion. The current owner has owned this plane for 15 years and flown approximately 600hrs. The plane is located near salt water. He has flown during the summer months and hangered the plane every winter. The motor has 1200 TTSN.

I have heard from some that this motor will need a MOH at this point. The thought is that you can count on 2000hrs TBO or 10 years. This has had at a minimum 15-20+ years SMOH. Compressions check out ok, oil samples are ok.

What do you all think? I was up front in stating that this motor has been a long time SMOH and will likely cost $18-$22k right away. He balked at this statement saying that it will easily fly safely to 2000hrs. He is asking $65k for the airplane. Lost his medical.

I am interested in your thoughts. If you want to know more let me know. I am looking for all the input I can find!

Jaime Andersen
Anchorage, AK

Post by **GAHorn** » Mon Feb 25, 2008 1:36 am

The so-called "ten year" overhaul requirement is a mfr's suggested period, and is only required for commercial/135 operators. Since you are likely to only operate it Part 91, that requirement is not applicable. 1200 hours is a common time to need cylinders, but if they check out fine, then there's no need to do anything to them.
There is also no guarantee the engine will make 2000 hours before it needs an overhaul, nor is there any guarantee that at 2000 hours it must be overhauled. Part 91 engines may be operated until they need repair.
(In other words, it doesn't sound like you have a valid argument to reduce the price as it relates to the engine. There may be other issues, but if the engine is healthy, the calendar-time is not an issue for a Part 91 operator.)

blueldr · Post by **blueldr** » Mon Feb 25, 2008 3:17 am

I always figure that under part 91 you should only think about engine overhaul on a "Condition" basis. Suppose the manufacturer recommends a 2000 hour overhaul. Your engine has low compression, high oil consumption and low oil pressure at 1000 hours and nothing seems to be able to help it out. It obviously needs to have a major overhaul because of its "CONDITION". By the same token, at the 2000 hour recommended time it's running fine, the compressions are healthy, oil consumption is within spec and the oil pressure is within limits, what would be the advantage in an overhaul at this time.
In other words, under part 91 "Condition" should be the prime consideration when contemplating engine overhaul. It is not unusual for a properly maintained engine bottom end to reach near 4000 hours with a top overhaul once, or even twice along the way.

jaime72 · Post by **jaime72** » Mon Feb 25, 2008 3:41 am

That is kind of the reply I was looking for. I am totally a "go with how it feels" kind of person. We spend too much time trying to be computational and objective about things. How about "does the dang thing work?" Be dynamic and take all factors into consideration.

I was mostly curious as to what the thoughts were on the time issue. I had a mechanic tell me that since the engine obviously didn't fly much (600hrs in 15 years) and was sitting around it probably needs an OH right away. His thought was 20 years without one is too long, regardless of compression, oil consumption and the general "condition" of the motor.

I am going to take a look at this O-360 170B tomorrow I think. It has a pretty comprehensive list of things that have been modified, added or updated, so we will see if the paperwork is in order regarding needed STC's or 337's.

I will let you all know how it goes. $65k doesn't seem too unreasonable for a O-360 conversion. Anyone have a good 170 mechanic in Anchorage?

Jaime Andersen
Anchorage AK

pdb · Post by **pdb** » Mon Feb 25, 2008 4:13 am

jaime72 wrote: I will let you all know how it goes. $65k doesn't seem too unreasonable for a O-360 conversion. Anyone have a good 170 mechanic in Anchorage?

Jaime Andersen
Anchorage AK

Jaime:

You might contact Russell Smoot at MRI ( 272-117). He owns and flies a 170 and has worked on mine for a decade. He is also busy and may not have much interest in new clients.

At Palmer, John Biornstad is a good choice. 907 745-1631.

Are you certain the plane you are looking at has an 0-360? There is also an 0-340 that has been for sale.

jaime72 · Post by **jaime72** » Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:57 am

Thanks for the contact numbers.

Yea, it is a Lycoming O-360 that has been on the "market" by word of mouth though recently listed on Craigslist. Please don't steal it from under me!

Where is the O-340?

Jaime

AKGrouch · Post by **AKGrouch** » Mon Feb 25, 2008 6:23 am

Jaime, Give me a call today (Monday) at my office after 9:00 a.m. and we can discuss your situation. Maybe I can be of some help. I am not trying to sell you anything either. If you are familiar with Merrill, I own the black 172A taildragger by Northern Lights avionics. My 0360 has over 1400 hours since a factory remanufacture over 30 years ago. Anyway, I am fortunate in that the cam is still good and there appears to be no rust inside. It runs good, uses about 1 quart every 12 - 15 hours tach time and the compressions are good. I don't plan on rebuilding it until I have to.

I also know about a stock 170 my IA is rebuilding on Merrill,as well as another one near my bird where the owner lost their medical, thinks it's worth 65K when it really is about 25K to 28K considering the work needed another IA I know found when he did a prepurchase. He also has his ears to the heartbeat of the neighborhood and what is available, etc.. I have found him to be very honest. He is also very protective of his clients because he wants to keep them alive by ensuring they are in a safe bird. I'll be in the office by 9:00 Call me at 277-7677. Pat Ross

pdb · Post by **pdb** » Mon Feb 25, 2008 6:49 am

jaime72 wrote:Thanks for the contact numbers.

Yea, it is a Lycoming O-360 that has been on the "market" by word of mouth though recently listed on Craigslist. Please don't steal it from under me!

Where is the O-340?

Jaime

I am quite happy with my 170B/ O-300 so I won't be bidding against you. The O-340 is located at MRI on Golf apron. It looks great cosmetically but its a project plane and I am not sure the O-340 mod is worth the extra expense.

c170b53 · Post by **c170b53** » Mon Feb 25, 2008 3:54 pm

Hey Pete almost got John DeVisser's 170A going, should happen next month.
Most aircraft are coming down in price, 65K is alot of money for a 170 now. The problem with pilots losing their medical is often they have lost some of their eyesight and memory as in their new aircraft is not so new anymore. (Oh-oh that describes me!) Its like arguing with a drunk over the price; move the search on.

Post by **GAHorn** » Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:02 pm

The airplanes that I have seen losing value have been the twins and gas-hogs. I have the opinion that 170's are an excellent value and expect them to stay that way. Check out what they're worth in 5-10 years and we'll see who's right.

Lucky · Post by **Lucky** » Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:47 pm

Jaime,
For what it's worth, I WOULD have concerns about that engine and the operational conditions you describe. All engines are an unknown quantity...even new ones from the factory. But low hours over a long time in a corrosive environment certainly isn't good for them. Was the oil being changed every four months regardless of how many hours it was flown? Lycoming says it should be, so if it wasn't, that's another strike. I'd be very, very surprised if that engine made it to 2000 hours after the history you describe. Not saying it's impossible, just saying I wouldn't be flying over any water with it.

Also, your market is obviously going to be different than my market down here in the lower 48, but $65k seems pretty high to me. I just bought a '54 170B with 51 hours on the 0-360 engine and a new cs prop, plus a Horton Stol kit, P-ponk gear, Atlee Dodge rear seats, patroller windows, V-brace, new paint, new instruments, new interior...a 10 inside and out, for $70k.

If you have your heart set on this type of plane, I'd advise getting your financial ducks in a row and waiting until you find a plane you don't have any serious questions about. I've been looking for nearly three years, and I've seen a lot of garbage float by, all with pretty high price tags.

good luck

lowNslow · Post by **lowNslow** » Mon Feb 25, 2008 6:39 pm

I often wondered if 170s go for a premium in Alaska. Any of you Alaska guys notice any price difference of 170 prices in AK vs. the lower US?

hilltop170 · Post by **hilltop170** » Mon Feb 25, 2008 7:16 pm

Alaska prices are not much different than lower 48. It's only a 15-35 hour flight to Alaska from just about anywhere west of the Mississippi. Mods/upgrades probably make the biggest difference as everyone knows. There are probably more modified planes percentage wise in Alaska so higher prices.

It's easy to spend over $100,000 to modify/restore any single engine plane if you pay someone else to do it but hard to recover if you sell. Can't blame a seller from trying, though, but it doesn't mean he's going to get his price.

Market supply and demand still works.There are still enough nice 170s out there that prices are still reasonable. As gas prices shoot up and us older pilots decide to simplify our flying/planes, we are going to keep discovering how nice 170s are to fly, feed, and maintain. I think they are going to continue to increase in value.

If anyone needs help in getting a plane to Alaska, give me a shout. I'll be glad help you do it or ferry it for you. It's always an adventure but very do-able. If you would feel comfortable flying a tank of gas in the morning and one in the afternoon and doing that for 3-5 days, you can make the trip.

c170b53 · Post by **c170b53** » Mon Feb 25, 2008 8:40 pm

"I just bought a '54 170B with 51 hours on the 0-360 engine and a new cs prop, plus a Horton Stol kit, P-ponk gear, Atlee Dodge rear seats, patroller windows, V-brace, new paint, new instruments, new interior...a 10 inside and out, for $70k".
That's a right price.
170's will keep their value as long as they are kept in good shape. This means that indeed they will continue to appreciate vs the dollar. With airplanes that are expensive to fly often maintenance slips, then the value follows IMHO.

AKGrouch · Post by **AKGrouch** » Tue Feb 26, 2008 11:50 pm

c170b53 wrote:"I just bought a '54 170B with 51 hours on the 0-360 engine and a new cs prop, plus a Horton Stol kit, P-ponk gear, Atlee Dodge rear seats, patroller windows, V-brace, new paint, new instruments, new interior...a 10 inside and out, for $70k".
That's a right price.
170's will keep their value as long as they are kept in good shape. This means that indeed they will continue to appreciate vs the dollar. With airplanes that are expensive to fly often maintenance slips, then the value follows IMHO.

Sounds very nice with some good mods. Care to share a photo with us?