MOA basics

[c170b53]

Just need some basic MOA and map reading knowledge. I'm looking on the Seattle sectional and at the Okanogan A MOA. My questions are; whats the difference between an A and an A&B MOA? Whats the floor altitude of Okanogan A and how do you determine that by looking at the map. Are these areas always active or by Notam? When looking at this valley there's "E" class airspace how do you determine the floor there? Trying to avoid a Whorthog close-up encounter. Saw a pair a couple of years ago fly underneath me up the Fraser valley, they looked like a pair of vultures looking for rodents (poor Taliban in the open).

[Robert Eilers]

c170b53,

The floors and ceilings of MOAs (as wewll as other special use airspace) reflected on a particular Sectional chart are depicted either at the top of one side or another, or along a side panel. On the Seattle sectional side panel, below the Portland Inset, you will fins the information on the Okanogan MOAs and effective times. Generally, you can either get an update on the active status of a MOA from FSS, or (as I do) call up the ATC facility listed on the side panel (Seattle Center for Okanagan MOA) and get an update. A great deal of informaiton can be found along the edges and tops of Sectional charts.

[GAHorn]

The most difficult task I had was finding CANADIAN CHARTS! On the way out to Vancouver after the Kelowna Convention, Jim (c170b53) kindly loaned me his. It's bewildering to me that VFR charts cannot simply be purchased at FBOs and Flying Clubs in Canada.

[Robert Eilers]

c170b53,

I failed to answer your question about E-airspace in the valley. In the valley over Tonasket E-airspace begins at 1200 AGL - your clue is the Blue shaded line along the West side of the Okanagan A & B MOA. However, over Omak the floor of E-airspace begins at 4500 MSL - depicted by the Blue railraod track box surrounding Omak.

[cessna170bdriver]

whats the difference between an A and an A&B MOA?

The A and B are part of the names of the MOAs. It appears that Okanagan A overlies B and C.

The most difficult task I had was finding CANADIAN CHARTS! On the way out to Vancouver after the Kelowna Convention, Jim (c170b53) kindly loaned me his. It's bewildering to me that VFR charts cannot simply be purchased at FBOs and Flying Clubs in Canada.

George, as c170b53 mentioned, the airspace in question is on the SEATTLE sectional. Thats in the United States...

Miles

[c170b53]

Thanks all for the map reading lesson.

[GAHorn]

...

The most difficult task I had was finding CANADIAN CHARTS! On the way out to Vancouver after the Kelowna Convention, Jim (c170b53) kindly loaned me his. It's bewildering to me that VFR charts cannot simply be purchased at FBOs and Flying Clubs in Canada.

George, as c170b53 mentioned, the airspace in question is on the SEATTLE sectional. Thats in the United States...

Miles

I saw the discussion as being related to charts-as-a-topic in general... (the different slant was why I capitalized CANADIAN) ... and I wanted to point out the excellent and generous character which Jim sends toward his fellow 170-ers.

[c170b53]

Thanks for the kind words George, most of the time I'm getting rid of stuff I don't need. Seems that you've helped out a few members with your stockpile as well. I needed help with the maps as I mainly fly in my local patch and have never ventured into the states. I'm trying to break out this year.

[GAHorn]

....I mainly fly in my local patch and have never ventured into the states. I'm trying to break out this year.

We'll alert Homeland Security.

[Lucky]

My experience with MOA's is that they are always active. On two occasions I've had Center tell me the MOA is cold while I watched a couple jets doing four-G turns below me. A couple jet-jockies have told me that most of the time while flying low they are just using see-and-avoid...no spotter plane, no radar, just eyeballs. It doesn't take too much imagination to figure out that a plane flying 400mph in a 90 degree bank isn't going to see a little Cessna in time to do anything but go through it. When I'm flying through a MOA I turn on all my lights...it doesn't matter if I can see them...I need them to see me.

[blueldr]

I find that when MOAs get involved in my route of flight it is easiest to use the "French" outlook. "It is a very big sky and there is really a lot of room up there."
I onetime has a controller at Idlewild (Now JFK) tell me about an Air France captain in a Constellation in the stack at 12,000 who was running low on fuel. He simply declared an emergency on the frequency and announced "Clear zee stack! Pierre ees coming down." Airplanes scattered all to hell and gone and it took forever to get them all stacked again. I don't know how true it was, but it made a good story.
I have never had any experience with the MOAs east of the rockies, but out here in the west, damn near the whole eleven western states seem to be almost covered with them.

[GAHorn]

At the risk of well-deserved crticism....
... heading up to Pettit Jean this last weekend we stopped at DeQueen for fuel. One more hour and we'd be at Pettit Jean. The forecast was for 3K-4500 ceilings and 10-15 miles viz. Direct-course took us thru the "Hog Low South" MOA. I picked up flight following with center and they advised "Hog" was cold so I proceeded thru it at 2500 MSL. According to the Sectional the highest terrain in the MOA was 2700, but we were in visual with the ground, made up of east-west running ridges/valleys with aabout a 3500 overcast. Shortly center advised me to contact Memphis Ctr when exiting the other side and to "Be careful.... rising terrain ahead of you... Minimum vectoring altitude in there is 3900." I thanked him and switched to the next freq. and made a call.... no answer. Too low.
A few miles later we ran into lowering clouds and obscured mtn tops and got between the proverbial "rock and a hard place". It was to the point where we could no longer remain VFR, and the mtn tops were no longer visible. I thought about the TTA flight that hit the mountains in this area about 30 years ago, and how stupid it was to try to fly VFR in this area with low ceilings. Doh! It was time to do the right thing. With the MOA cold I felt OK about climbing up thru it, but wasn't feeling too good about climbing up when I didn't know for sure what was ahead in the form of cumulo-granit. We got thru 3,000 and was finally able to get a response from Memphis ctr. I told them what I was doing and they said they could issue a clearance once we got thru 4500, to report passing it .
I did so and they cleared us direct MPJ @ 6K. We were solid IFR in occasional light rain for the next 30-40 miles. At least it was fairly smooth.
When we got almost to the point of a let-down we were asked to "hold at JETSI (the IAF), left hand turns (opposite that depicted in the chart " while a corporate King Air shot the GPS to Russelville. We held for about 3 turns (about 10-15 mins that seemed a lot longer) in rain (had to run constant carb heat and lean it out to keep from missing) and then were cleared for the GPS Rwy 3 to MPJ.


(Larger image available at: http://www.myairplane.com/databases/app ... 5795R3.PDF )
We broke out about 2400 MSL (1400 AGL) saw the airport, cancelled IFR and entered downwind for Rwy 21 and landed.
It would have been smarter to have filed/flown IFR from DeQueen obviously, but the forecast allowed me to hope for a lazier, more direct VFR flight that almost got us into trouble.
I was reminded that it was easier to teach holding in the sim than to fly it in a 170 with AN gyros and carb ice.